Scott Marcus - Scaling Vital Farms & Blue Zones Kitchen

On this episode, we’re joined by Scott Marcus, CEO and Co-Founder of Blue Zones Kitchen, the mission-driven frozen foods brand rooted in the research behind the world’s longest-lived communities. 

After helping scale Vital Farms to the point of IPO and beyond, Scott set out to build a new kind of food company.

Scott breaks down how he and his co-founders, Dan Buettner and Matt O’Hare, transformed decades of Blue Zones research into a modern CPG platform. We explore what it takes to build a Public Benefit Corporation from scratch, how the team approached R&D and formulation, and the principles guiding their product roadmap. 

Scott also dives into packaging strategy, pricing, distributor and broker selection, and what he sees shifting across the frozen aisle and the broader better-for-you landscape.

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Episode Highlights:

🌍 Turning the Blue Zones lifestyle into a CPG brand
🏢 The decision to be a Public Benefit Corporation
🧪 How clean, nutrient-dense R&D actually happens
🗺️ Structuring an intentional product roadmap
🚀 The core ingredients of a successful product launch
🎨 Packaging, color strategy & communicating trust
💲 Pricing strategy
🥶 Why the frozen section is changing faster than people realize
👀 The emerging brands + trends Scott is following

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Table of Contents:

00:00 – Intro
00:55 – Blue Zones (Kitchen) overview
05:07 – Scott’s next adventure
07:44 – Crafting a compelling story
12:22 – Public Benefits Corporations
15:04 – Public Benefits Corps vs. Certified B Corps
17:54 – R&D and formulation
21:09 – Product roadmap strategy
22:56 – Keys to a successful new product launch
25:17 – Visual identity and packaging design
27:23 – Own a color (or not?)
29:23 – Pricing
35:11 – Distributors and brokers
42:04 – The frozen section
48:33 – Brands and trends Scott is watching

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Links:

Blue Zones Kitchen – https://bluezoneskitchen.com
Follow Scott on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-marcus/
Follow me on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out KitPrint.

Transcript

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welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with Scott Marcus co founder and CEO of Blue Zones Kitchen CPG brand built born out of the Blue Zones movement which excited to dive into here in just a second Scott was a CMO at Vital Farms where he LED the prolific uh egg brand up to and through IPO I believe LED savory snack brands like planters and and Triscuits under the big Kraft Mondeliz umbrella so got a really a lot of really great experience really excited to get into it um Scott maybe just for kind of the listeners that that aren't as familiar with Blue Zones Kitchen just to start off maybe you just give us quick lay of the land in terms of origin story why behind the brand obviously I think probably important to touch on the Blue Zones movement is part of that what the core product lineup looks like today and maybe just throw out a few places that people can get their hands on them today and then we'll go from there absolutely and but first thanks for having me Adam I really appreciate it I've been a fan and listening for quite a while now and so it's fun to have this conversation and be part of the show um yeah absolutely um so the the background on the Blue Zones um is like well I guess the the short version is that they're parts of the world known for longevity um what happened was a team of scientists LED by Dan Buettner with National Geographic started finding and then researching these places where people were living to be not only centenarians not not only living long but living really active vibrant lives and so they set out to see what what what's going on here what are the commonalities are the things that we can learn and uh and so that research began and LED to Dan publishing his first um article in National Geographic in 2,005 um and then the I brought props the first the original Blue Zones book um about those parts of the world in 2,008 it's a it's a concept I guess now we call maybe call it a brand um but it the Blue Zones has been around for for 17 actually really more like 20 years and so those parts of the world often I say well have you heard of the Blue Zones and they say no and then they say wait isn't there something in like Japan or in the Mediterranean and so the five Blue Zones are are Okinawa in Japan Ikaria in Greece Sardinia in Italy the Nicoya Peninsula in Costa Rica um and then low Melinda California is the the US um hotspot and it's because it's a a seventh day Adventist community because most of LA is really not a longevity hotspot as you might imagine but the Seventh Day Adventists have a lot of really good good lifestyle changes that that help them live to be a long healthy life fast forward a number of years the Blue Zones you know name is out there Dan might a couple of cookbooks his first one the the original Blue Zones Kitchen about five years ago now and um and you know what Dan recognized was that people really struggled with the eating wisely pillar of the Blue Zones um moving naturally people kind of get you don't have to run a Marathon or do Crossfit you just should do things like gardening and walking walking the hills or walking the stairs in Sardinia um having purpose or ikigai as they call it in Okinawa is uh you know something people kind of I think conceptualize and then the fourth main pillar around community and family um it's pretty intuitive but the eating the eating wisely like I said is really where people struggle because our environment here is set up for fast food junk food ultra processed food um and so after writing the cookbook and recognizing the feedback um I think Dan Dan started to focus more on on the food aspects of Blue Zones um which LED us ultimately a few years later to to do what we do now which is a line of of meals that allow you to eat the Blue Zones way when you don't have time to cook um and so I would say you will get into it maybe a little bit more but we launched in market in the fall of 2023 just over two years ago um on the heels of a Netflix documentary that Dan hosted because called live to 100 secrets of the Blue Zones and that really for a lot of people built the awareness of Blue Zones again it had been out there for 20 years technically or 18 years at the time but you know Netflix obviously has a lot of power and so having the the awareness bump from Netflix um was a really good time for us to launch in the marketplace are pretty intuitive you know it's not biohacking you don't have to do anything absolutely crazy and so I think that's where a lot of people recognize seeing it in a easy to watch all filmed documentary series you kind of realize that you know I can I can do this totally yeah I think that's totally accurate I'm just kind of curious what was the um the aha moment or or maybe it was kind of a long winding journey that ultimately LED you to the conclusion okay Blue Zones Kitchen is is the the next chapter you wanna dedicate yeah I I think probably more journey than aha moment but um um you know I think it's a like a lot of things a combination of of passion and and people um when I say that going going back a little bit of all the brands I worked at in the kind of Kraft Nabisco Mondelize world um where I really enjoyed the most were we're working on brands like Triscuit and Planters nuts which coincidentally are the you know cleanest ingredient products in that portfolio it's you know wheat oil and salt in the Triscuit case and it's nuts oil and salt in the case of planters and you know having had the opportunity to to partner and create programs with with peanut farmers and with nut farmers um that kind of really got me excited and and ready me for when I was you know gonna move on to recognize that I wanted to work on not only more nutritious food um but real food and so you know I always joke that I moved here to to greener pastures at Vital Farms um and and literally greener pastures working with hundreds of of egg farmers and uh you know like you said it was it was a fantastic journey for me building the brand building a marketing team leading a fantastic sales team and just kind of helping that brand to to fulfill what it really is worth um and so having done that for six years post IPO you know felt like a time to move on to something new and I didn't move too far frankly um and so you know the maybe the passion piece is is obvious but from a people perspective um one of my co founders is Mado Hair who's the Vital Farms founder um he got to know Dan Buettner of the Blue Zones and you know I think they had started to talk about you know the ability to bring Blue Zones into into the food world into grocery and so when I started talking about moving on Matt pulled me aside and you know brought me over here so um that's how it got started um you know for me it's you know the perfect combination of of a an established and trusted brand in the Blue Zones because it's it's based on research and and trust and you know um documentation for many many decades um and the ability to build something new but really you know taking a play a a page out of the playbook from my past working directly with farmers to source a lot of our ingredients um making sure we can offer very delicious but nutritious nutrient rich um product that we can really feel good about and and yeah help society eat better yeah that makes that makes a lot of sense in terms of what LED you to where you are today one question I had is I was thinking about a bit my journey too so a few years back um as a co founder of a company in the the regulated cannabis space and in the California market ultimately didn't didn't end up working out as we had hoped for variety of reasons that could be a whole other multi long hour conversation but you know for a while we were the leader in the market and the number one brand our category for I think like three years in a row selling at a higher price point than than most in our category and I think the the key reason that we were able to do so just because of the strong brand we had built by essentially co branding with kind of craft regenerative small farmers that are up in Northern California area and I think it's probably accurate to say that more conventional category at a man and at a much larger scale you built the Vital Farms our strategy you know with your stakeholders as well because that just resonates so much with people how can brands that like that's just as easy to tell those kinds of stories so it could be yeah that doesn't really include ingredients that come from small family farms as an example but and that may enable them you know in a similar way when they just may not have their business model doesn't lend to be able to tell similar stories that question kind of makes sense yeah I think so I I you know for me what it comes down to is um and and anyone who's heard me kind of guest lecture anywhere or or talk on a lot of ASQ classes that I've I've done in the past um I always say the the magic happens when what a brand offers um and delivers with their product aligns with what their consumer needs right and that could mean a lot of different things um and it and it doesn't have in in our case I'd say in the early days at Vital Farms it was um people very passionate about animal welfare um and I think in most cases when people when brands start out you you find something very core and and um and something that that there's a small group of very passionate people for and hopefully that becomes sort of the that core base consumer that you can build from um but I'd say typically and even in the case of Idol Farms it's a very small number of people it's not scalable and so sort of classic and I'm I'm a total marketing geek I go back to the the uh

marketing 1: 10:03

01 textbooks what if you think about the the um brand hierarchy that sort of more emotional benefit um is gonna resonate but um not necessarily gonna get people to commit their dollars and you know the the for better or worse where the masses of people are where the the opportunity to scale is tends to be further down on the on the the pyramid which is you know maybe product benefits um but often even just the attributes of what ingredients what flavors are you offering maybe it's a protein or fiber though I'd say even I'll give you the examples in both Vital Farms and and Blue Zones Kitchen we started off at Vital Farms really focused on animal welfare talking about the amount of space the hens get and that's still part of the messaging today but um we really had to broaden the message and make it much more focused on what people cared about which is you know in food table stakes is is taste um nutritional benefits or you know I think that's a better example in the Blue Zones kitchen space where we offer nutrients and it really is it's more about those functional attributes and benefits than the more emotional connection like there are people that are absolute Blue Zones followers fans who have read all the books watch all the documentaries watch all the Ted Talks um and and I and I love those folks um but there aren't a lot of them and so when we go to market you know which I'm I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about getting people to you know see a product that looks delicious in the store and recognize what the the recipe or the the product's gonna taste like um at the right price value the the traditional peas have to work the four peas have to work and uh you know sometimes you can leverage the the um the farm partnerships I wish that was more of the case than people really cared more about the way we partner with farmers or the impact on you know a broader stakeholder or world but in the reality is people have to make choices with their dollars and typically it's what what's in it for me and that's gonna be taste health convenience for the most part yeah that's really helpful from what I know a public benefit corporation which I'm not sure how you know but um with public benefit corporations can you maybe just give super quick kind of rundown and what these are in comparison to a traditional C corp yeah yeah it's a it's a topic I I have a lot of fun with I I will state out front that I am not a lawyer so this is the non corporate lawyer definition or explanation of of public benefit corporations um and very timely too because just last week Open AI announced that they are becoming a public benefit corporation oh wow I did not know that they transition from non profit um so I would say you know again as a non lawyer the gist of the gist of it is that you're stating in your company charter that you're in business for more than just shareholder gains and I think for you know many decades since the 70s sort of the mantra um has been that business exists for the uh increased value of of stock or shares um and what the public benefit corporation designation allows you to do is say hey we've got a higher purpose um not that you can't make money and this is not a non profit designation at all and the reality is if you're not profitable you cease to exist and so the thing that you're benefiting the the the cause that you're really getting behind doesn't doesn't manifest itself so um so it I think it's more of a signal than anything else I think you know there's debate you know whether courts would would uphold that right um but you know I think where it probably started was that there have been shareholder lawsuits in the past where people have sued a company or a board because the company didn't make every decision only about maximizing short term financial gains for the stockholder right and you know I think what I've personally found and Learned over the past ten years in this side of the the the less corporate side of the business is that your business can actually be much more successful much more financially successful if you do focus on other stakeholders and you do have more purpose because consumers care and because you know there are longer term outcomes that end up better for you and just saying hey I could save a couple of pennies this quarter or this year yeah um so I I find it really valuable um again there's there's always a lot of debate about these things in the the the the corporate circles and the legal circles but I think for me it's a signal to potential investors it's a signal to potential employees people we wanna go hire that you know we we exist for a reason and it's not just to make profit for the sake of making profit yeah that's yeah that's that's really helpful for um have got the idea they're about to go through this incorporation process maybe they're considering going the the public benefit route I think just for some of those founders that are can have heard of that one too or maybe been putting more of a focus on that one define the difference between the two and then if you have a take on it why might a you know or I know there are some that are both as well yeah that's a great question and and um I did go through the B Corp certification process OK at Vital Farms so I yeah I'm I'm pretty familiar with that as well although it it I'm sure morphed slightly over the past eight years or so um but so the the B Corp certification first of all you don't have to be a corporation you can do that at at at any type of entity and I got all it's also a signal um to consumers or you know any outside stakeholders that you you care about fraudly society I think there's a I um test is the wrong word but there's an application process to be certified as as a B Corp right and it involves it involves governance um it involves how you treat employees there's a piece of it around the community there's a piece of it around the environment um and and there's a whole scoring structure around it um just you know I think it's find a whole cottage industry of consultants that help you um master or even just apply because it's it's pretty intense yeah um and and so yeah I think I I I'm I'm largely a fan of it I think you know what B Corp has done a decent job of is establishing the logo as something that people start to recognize and so you see it on more and more packages and it's sort of that symbol of trust that you'd find on a product on the shelves yeah um you know I think there's been recent debate about that certification because some you know some people would say that now the large corporations are jumping in and you know there's no way that they could you know uphold all those those same benefits and it's a scoring process right so you might score higher or lower in on some aspects right and so you know it it it does get questioned but everything does and I think you know largely it's a it's a good signal it means that you care um and for that really small percentage of people that are um dedicated to it they'll look into it and say well what was your score and and where did you score well and where did you not score well right but I think you know broadly if you take a big step back both of those things PBC's and and B Corps and and and other other similar certifications are are just good signals that a company is you know dedicated to a a purpose beyond beyond just profit for potential employees potential investors is every stakeholder that's involved that you know within an organization too which is great yeah exactly yeah when you're kind of in the initial R&D formulation phase without really giving in away any core trade secrets what were some of those kind of key variables you you you played around with key tweaks you made along the way between the first versions and the versions that you you knew were right for those first four bowls that you brought to market yeah wow that takes me back um you know what one interesting thing about the blues on kitchen journey to to launch is that we actually moved really quickly um and I think we were able to do that because because we just had a lot of experience um uh the the last co founder and my partner Abby Coleman she's our our chief operating officer she and I we're the only two actually today we're still the only two actual employees of the company all these years later um but she and I met at Kraft about 20 years ago so we had a similar background um and then we've got some fantastic folks supporting us um on a contract basis who also are just very well um experience in the industry and so that allowed us to to move much more quickly than I think most would um and and at least attempt do our best to avoid the the the typical pitfalls but yeah for us it was it was a it was a race to market from sort of initial concept to shelf was eight or nine months well um but along the way you know I think to the the gist of your question you know we we talk we we use the the cookbooks as a starting point cause we wanna be really true to the the recipes the ingredients that people eat in the Blue Zones right so a lot of the adjustments and tweaking we did are around you know the the naming conventions um but also you know getting some insights around purchase and tan and some some dishes are more prevalent more interesting than others um and then there's the uh the functional operational piece which uh um Abby always talked about us us playing 4D chess where they're just you know variables around you know price and size or or weight and ingredients and costs and you know there is just sort of no perfect answer but doing our best to complete the right the right package literally and physically and figuratively and we you know we ultimately felt good about the formulas that we launched we we pretty much had a recipe from each of the four main regions of the world that have Blue Zones in them got it um which if you know if anyone picks up there's a slight color coding of our meals and they indicate the different different regions like Mediterranean Asia Pacific the Americas and Latin America so that's how we went about it um but I would say you know we we were as as as as scrappy as anybody else despite having decades of experience and you know tried to use some insights without a a significant budget and without a lot of time ahead of us we were we were scrambling to make sure we hit shelf when that Netflix documentary dropped that makes sense yeah you gotta you gotta a tight timeline there you gotta work around totally um you guys recently launched four additional bowls more recently was that a similar process where you you know the the next four basically were from them same regions or maybe just a broader broad questions part of that like what's what's the journey or process look like at Blue Zones that kinda leads a decision to to bring a new skew to market after those initial four um yeah you know I think it was a decision or a question around introducing more and the timing of introducing more um but I think you know I feel like we play in a category in in meals or entrées where um there's some variety seeking and people are not going to want to eat the same the same meal over and over again uh huh far different than in the egg business where you know the same dozen carton of eggs could be pretty much your only skew if you needed to be um and so you know so we knew that that if if we had seen some early success we should try to put some more products out there appeal to more taste buds um and and also you know get a little bit more of a brand block on shelf and so um we we did probably a little bit more homework that time around um and I'd say the the the keyword for us in that next iteration of products was um beyond the typical like of the obvious taste purchase intent financial viability um the other piece was really incrementality um and so you know for us we want to make sure that these are products that are not just going to cannibalize the first four um and certainly in talking to retailers we needed to demonstrate that these are products that you can put in addition to our initial items and this is not a swap out and so the combination of having some some learnings as well as some good initial in market data was really helpful and just getting those sold in we actually launched two of them earlier in the fall of actually I guess the winter of 2024 and then the next two came out in September of this year but they did they the four of them hit shelves all once in a lot of places yeah generally kind of to a successful new product launch that that's done that there's there's a lot there right um for for anyone who's in this business um starting and I always I always kind of advise people to start and always go back to that connection between what your brand offers and what the consumer wants so like is there a real need and is it really connected to your brand um I you know maybe a a different different talk show but you know there are so many brands that move into new categories really quickly um and every once in a while it's the right adjustment or pivot and you end up kind of building your business off that second or or maybe even third iteration but the idea that you know any small brand can can succeed in multiple parts of the store multiple categories I I would I would personally challenge any day totally um so it really starts with with that first piece which is like hey is is there a role for this is there a need for it and then you know as you reference you know does this make you know financial sense is is the price value there um and then you know execution you mentioned hitting timelines hitting budgets and you know execution is is critical always but you know especially in this industry where you know you're selling something in nine sometimes a year nine months sometimes a year before you're gonna hit the shelf and if you miss a deadline if you miss sending in your packaging on time or if you miss a a distributor deadline um you might be in the doghouse for another year right and so you know it's it's really important to be managing the the timelines and the the the flawless execution um to to hit the dates um and then to hit the financial milestones and you know I I'd say you know in our case giving ourselves some some buffer just being realistic about the things that could go wrong both financially maybe even if you didn't foresee tariffs um but financial flexibility and timeline flexibility just build all that in and you know give yourself that give yourself the Assumption that you're gonna miss something talking about Blue Zones specifically in terms of thinking back to those those days when you were going through the kind of packaging design stage what were thinking back to those days that were top of mind for you want to make sure were conveyed yeah I you know I would say for packaging and and true for blues on kitchen but true for just about any brand um you know branding slash brand block I'd say is is obviously a really important piece like what are you gonna look like what kind of presence are you gonna build on the shelf um a second one would be um in food at least appetite appeal like you just you need to communicate you can't just say we taste good no one's gonna believe that in words so you gotta you really just have to show it because people are making quick decisions great point right um and and the and the third I you know for me and if people who know me well know it's my favorite word it's it's focus um you know what's that one thing that people are gonna take away and recognize you know is it is it an ingredient is it a claim is it you know a feeling um is it a taste you know whatever it might be what's that one thing that that you people are gonna pick up on as they're walking by in milliseconds kind of scanning the shelf yeah so yeah so I I think those are for the big three for us we ended up and we worked with Andy Curtis at a Buttermilk Creative someone I've known for many years worked together we're great things yeah we're great things we're great things and and we ended up in a an unusual place where I think typically you brand block based on either a color I used to work on on Ritz crackers and the big block of red is the the brand block of color um or you differentiate flavor with with color but then you've got something really prominent you know either it's a an image of your product or more likely your logo that is the consistency and we ended up in a little bit of a hybrid model where I'm looking back at our packaging where we use a slight slight variation of color but they still hold together cohesively and they feel like a family but allow us to differentiate like I was saying earlier the various regional cuisines um so it's kind of an unusual take but but so far it feels like it's working for us that's actually funny you say that because that's the question I was gonna ask you as you were talking about that in terms of having the the brand block on shelf you wanted to have that core solid brand color you said you know solid red color that dominates the shelf as you put more skews on the shelf but more recently it seems like brands have been leaning more towards kind of the the rainbow effect and where the like how that trend has shifted yeah I mean I can if I if I take a step back and I I know I'm I'm maybe speaking against my own my own decisions recently um but generally I I just I'm not a fan of the rainbow effect I think you know you've got such little time to get people to pick up on something and if you can at least own a visual own the color that that just makes a lot more intuitive sense if if I certainly wouldn't have done what we did if the if there was a stark contrast of colors I think kind of the the more muted color palette that we went with allows them to to feel cohesive but um yeah maybe I should be debating myself a little bit I'd say if anyone's starting a company now or getting on shelf for the first time you know try try to build as much of a presence and and colors the best way to do that yeah I I mean or you know a big CPG with you know the ability to just put as much product on shelf as you want and you've got that much of a presence then you could probably get away with a little bit more and honestly it might work in different categories like in ice cream um I think there are a lot of brands that well there's some some examples of both an ice cream but you know the one that comes to mind is is is Jenny's for me and you know that the logo is so prominent and the packaging is so consistent that you know you could figure out the pink one versus the green one versus the orange one and yeah you know they they do block well um I think less so when it's when it's I don't know at least in my experience in snacks it feels like it feels a lot harder to be consistent but yeah totally you know I'm sure there are great success stories on both sides of it right there's always someone that breaks the rule and it works out for them talking about pricing a bit and you can answer this in the context of of Blue Zones and maybe Vital Farms would be helpful too but just in general for other up and coming operators and they're thinking started thinking about price or maybe making some price adjustments what's what's your kind of general strategy and our process for for nailing down your go to market price my favorite topic um like I said I'm like total total geek and all this stuff and I remember you know signing up and and starting to take a a pricing course in in business school and thinking it was gonna be this yeah heavy math scientific kind of kind of course and it was purely psychological right which is why I ended up loving it and to this day like I feel like pricing is probably my favorite my favorite aspect of of launching in the marketplace um because it is it is it is so psychological it's so much about um value more so than price and what people are willing to pay um but but a lot does go into it and I think you know I always you always want to start with the consumer you know in in in our journey here it was you know kind of a an Assumption or you know a small range of where we thought that the market would pay for our brand and our quality product um you know a little bit of competitive benchmarking but also so recognizing that there's obviously some expectations out there but also that we're not offering the exact same thing that other people are offering um but you know as as you know you get into this business and you you may have a a perfect suggested retail price then you've got to back into you know well then what do I have to charge retailers or even even worse off what do I have to charge distributors who are then going to market up to the retailer who are then going to seek a certain margin and see you've got to make a lot of assumptions around what what the uh retailer is going to decide to charge cause we don't get to to make that call um so a lot of assumptions a lot of math and then you know back up from there alright so now I've got to charge you know the distributors you know X can I afford to do that right you know what are my cost of goods today and my freight today and what do we think it will really be once we get to you know a decent run rate and then you know the real question is do do we have a business model and I've I've you know worked with and advised some small brands in the past couple of years that you know frankly just there is no real real business model there's no margin in it unless you can demonstrate the ability to charge far more than you know is typical in the marketplace and then the question is can you like right is that really a thing and is there a story behind it or is there a quality behind it like what is that um so yeah I it's it's you know I've been fortunate to you know work on this brand with Blue Zones um you know Vital Farms was a premium product and you know I think part of part of the puzzle is you know establishing your your value with price I used to have people come up to me when I first got to Vital Farms and say oh I buy your eggs and and I'd ask them why cause I wanted to learn from them and they would say oh cause they're the expensive ones they must be good like well luckily we did back it up with a really good product but some people didn't know that they just said you know what it's $2 more than the others there must be something good about this I'm gonna put in my cart that's so interesting so interesting man you know you can use Biofarms as a reference or maybe craft because you had so many different excuse and product lines I imagine there's a lot of you know tweaking of prices along the along the way and periodic reviews of pricing what um what data points gonna lead you to decide or you make a recommendation that a brand should increase a price or decrease price man changing prices changing prices is never easy or never something I like to do either in either direction um you know I think for the most part it it it tends to be increases and they tend to be based on you know realities of cost increasing and you know that that's sort of it sort of is what it is and obviously if if if it's known if it's that a certain commodity that is part of your food um has gone up and the whole world knows about it it's you know easier to increase price without push back from the retailers or distributors um if it's less known or if it's for an internal reason it's obviously a lot harder to to pass along um and and you know you have to understand the the impact that's gonna have on your business you know we're gonna see a 20% loss of volume because I raised my price by 10% um and there are ways to study that but they tend to be really expensive um and so not not the best thing to do unless you absolutely need to do it and then at least try to get some kind of read from your your core consumers like are they willing to to go along with it yeah totally on the flip side if you're lowering your price you've probably done something wrong to start right totally um I mean you know arguably you know there are some some cases where you just had to charge a significant premium until you got to some scale um and then you're able to lower your price and kind of reach a broader audience so there could there could be a role for that but I think it's it's relatively rare um but certainly easier to to sell into retailers and you know your consumers are likely not gonna abandon you if you lower your price right um but then watch your finances right like then no did I just squeeze my own margins or lower my my contribution enough that I I can't pay my bills right totally yeah try to get the pricing right and not making up for that mess with it yeah yeah yeah I I I I I love the concept of pricing I don't like the idea of having to to mess with it like totally try to try to try to get it right and keep it for a really long time in the marketplace yep I think that's a good approach talking about distributors and and and brokers for a minute which are such a core piece of the puzzle it seems like you know a lot of operators kind of have a lot of I don't know frustrations with distributors for maybe they're you know tacking on fees and the invoice to get back are way less than they than they thought but feels like they're also there you know there can also be such a great relationship you can have a distributor and they're just a key such a key part of your business that can really propel you to to new heights just kind of truly partner with their distributor to maximize success yeah you know distributors are great question cause I we don't talk much about that we talk about partnering with retailers I know we'll talk soon about about brokers as well but um but yeah I mean if I think about distributors as as a a stakeholder right and in the broadly the stakeholder model of yeah how do you wanna build relationships how do you wanna treat partners um you know I think like any like any of those relationships clear open communications is gonna be a piece of it um and that means that yes if you see something that you you that doesn't look right or you shouldn't have been charged for having that ability to communicate that um but it also you know really comes down to to execution and and frankly doing what you say you're gonna do or or doing what you know is expected of you so if you're if you miss deadlines or if you don't deliver the right amount of product on the right dates that was promised well that's not gonna start the relationship off right um you know and I I you know I I there's obviously a lot of chatter about some of the distributors charging a lot of fees and and in a lot of cases they are incorrect whether it's intentional or not right um so I'm not I'm not I don't want to gloss over that that's an important part of the business and something everyone's got to pay attention to but um but you know there are there are there is the ability to have a really good relationship with big the big distributors their programs where they recognize fast growing and brands that have potential and put them on stage and let them showcase their their products and you know maybe in less less frequent but there's the occasional case where the distributor does help you get into some more distribution um so yeah listen it's important it those relationships tend to be more stressed than a lot of the other relationships in the business but but you're right I mean we should be looking to build the best relationships with all of our partners totally when does it make sense to engage a a broker or brokers from your experience yeah I've got maybe a little bit of a a different take on on brokers um and you know and I I've worked with and and today I do work with some brokers and some really fantastic ones um broadly I think what's really important is that the the founder or founding team um and then some some level of a company's sales sales person or sales team be involved um in our case um I work with Jonathan and and Scouts CPG but there are kind of external sales organizations that can act um on your behalf and really extend your team without having to hire everyone internally and I I just find that more beneficial in the early days because the their focus is solely on your brand your business um they're looking to grow but grow strategically in places where you can be successful where financially it makes sense um whereas you know in in some cases the brokers are have really great relationships with the buyers and the retailers which people seek right that's that's important but if that relationship is really you know close and cozy you know who are they really you know looking to to help out the most that again help that buyer relationship which frankly it's probably a longer term and will be a longer term relationship you know or they they kind of they're really more to help you as the brand and so right um like I said there there are fantastic brokers out there um I've I've since Vital Farms days and and here as well um have some small regional partners sometimes as for one specific retailer that they're experts at um or maybe just a region of the country where we don't have the the bandwidth or expertise um until there's a role I think brokers do a really great job because there's so much paperwork to be done there's there's so many reviews to keep you you know keep top of mind and you don't want to miss back to missing deadlines right and so they can play a role but you know as a as a small startup the first the first go to for me is either having a salesperson internally or having a sales agency that is an extension to my team how can a brand diligence or validate a broker's retail relationship to make sure they're they're real and are actually going to uh prove fruitful for you I guess and is there a way to really do that I guess yeah well I mean you know I think to the extent that we've hired brokers of over my recent past um a lot of it is you know I think there's some great word of mouth or great referrals and we started this this whole conversation about you know both passion and people and you know it is a very much a people business and so getting referrals from from people you trust um in in ideally in the industry um is certainly the the best way to go um you know I think you know it's easy to fall into wanting a partner or broker partner that has has a big name or you know some some cachet feels exciting but certainly you know get to know the the if you don't have a referral get to know the people um understand what else is in their portfolio or their kind of like minded brands um and then you know to some extent you you might have to test the waters that you know recognize I always I always tell folks to recognize that um like I said earlier the relationship that those brokers have with the retailers you know are are longer standing and in a lot of cases stronger ties than they have to you and so um you know kind of feeling out how how that broker is gonna represent you what their priorities are um and uh you know and and then manage it closely because the incentive for for a lot of those organizations is to sell more volume because very often it become if it doesn't start out on a commission basis it becomes a commission basis right um totally and I don't necessarily want to be in every retailer you know there are many cases where I'm not gonna be ready for x retailer until maybe year three or five or 10 right or maybe never it's just not the right consumer fit it's too costly to do business it's not a geography I'm prepared to support whatever it might be and so you've got to you've got to really you know participate and and communicate closely with any broker partner to make sure that that you guys are on the same page with the strategy and it's not just a kind of go out and sell at all costs right totally world specifically brand obviously plays in the in the frozen section definitely seems like this category is having a bit of a moment right now getting a lot of attention I'm just kind of curious what's what's unique about this category as you started playing in it and then also why do you feel like this general category is is having a bit of a resurgence yeah I think you know it's certainly it's a it's a category the frozen meals specifically is a category that that was ready for some refresh um you know I I grew up a kid of the eighties eating TV dinners um and you know it was a it was a treat um because I got to watch TV literally I remember watching the World Series um with my dad with the TV dinner on a tray in front of me um but you know from a treat perspective the ingredients were also the same you know it was it was a dessert pocket there was tons of preservatives and I I can't imagine how much sodium was in those things back then and so you know there was so much there was so much opportunity to to revise and kind of reshape what what frozen is because the reality and I think people are starting to realize this is that frozen fruit first of all maybe it's starting with fruits and vegetables but people are increasingly recognizing that you can lock in nutrients you can lock in freshness and you lock in taste by freezing um and maybe the technology is probably gotten better now than it was in the 80s so so maybe there was a little bit need more need for for preservatives back then um but with you know at least for where we are today the ability to lock in taste freshness nutrients um avoid food waste and you know not just food waste um from a consumer perspective food waste from a retailer perspective food waste at the distributor and food waste in the manufacturing side um because the shelf life obviously it is is much more extended right um and then you know what we always say at at at Blue Zone's Kitchen is the convenience is why we exist um we want everyone to pick up Dan's books and you know cook cook from scratch but in our society we don't always have time to do that and so by having something on hand in the freezer whether it's your leftovers um or one of our meals at least you've got a you can make the the easy choice a better choice than what you had in the past yeah um but I think the resurgence is is a because it's just a reality that we can offer really great tasty and healthy foods in the freezer with the convenience that just needed in our society I think younger consumers have seen it um and they were children of the pandemic so frozen was really important at that point and really kind of took a took a nice boost a lot of trial happening in frozen during Covid and so that cohort recognized it a lot of them are shopping at Trader Joe's frankly and so there's an opportunity for the rest of the grocery landscape to to pick up on some of that and then amongst older consumers you know um there's a little bit of an education that needs to happen that hey you know come on back this isn't your your your father's or your grandfather's TV dinner like there's some good stuff here now yeah um yeah it does seem like you know I there is a bit of a clean up on in the frozen aisle for sure and I'm glad to be part of it totally founder that's considering building a brand focused on this frozen category what's you know things that come top of mind that they should really keep yeah keep top of mind as as they're reading I mean certainly the the supply chain is what what comes to mind there are steeper costs to shipping frozen goods to storing everything frozen um ensuring that that continuous supply chain or cold chain exists that your product stays stays high quality and fresh um so that's probably the obvious um I think the the other reality is just that in most retailers um frozen meals these days are behind glass doors and so there's just you know there's there's less browsing there's less impulse purchase it's certainly not a it's not a super fast moving category it's not the slowest but you're not gonna get velocities like you do in in on some of the the perimeter categories and so you know how do you just let people know that that you exist that you're there because they're not not as easily just gonna find you kind of wandering the aisles yeah um so yeah we have to work a little bit harder um but you know I get a lot of questions around why why would you want to do frozen it's such a challenging category and I think you know the reality is every category is challenging in one way or the other if there were no real challenges everyone would be doing it and then the competition would be the extra challenge right like right exactly there's always something there's always something there's always something you talked about to find brands in this category just because the way it is and here's any um any thoughts that might come to mind in terms of if you had magic wand you could kind of design what the overall kind of entire frozen section looks like in the average retailer any thoughts around how like or ways that could help improve discovery take a page out of the Trader Joe's model and take the doors off totally great point I'm sure there's some there's definitely um you know an alignment there and probably some causation where people are just picking up more meals because they're readily accessible they're they're easy to find and easy to see so that's a big piece of and I think you know the other pieces is just as we were talking about the shifting landscape and kind of the shift towards cleaner better for you but still really delicious options in the frozen category it's still so heavily weighted towards the the traditional big CPG players and I think that that's what we'll we'll we'll see it over time you know I you think to other big categories that have been really shaken up I mean from you know soda with Ollie Pop and Poppy taking on Coke and Pepsi um chomps and on New Primal and other brands taking on the the legacy Slim Jims and other meat snacks um and so there there is there's definitely an opportunity for a real revolution as opposed to an evolution in this category totally um and you know I'm not sure what that tipping point will be but at some point you know I think they'll be you know less less doors of the traditional stuff the same old stuff you know the the the the chicken and some kind of sauce stuff um and more more variety out there yeah totally Scott last question for you you've been in the CPG world for such a long time you have just a great pulse in the world outside of what you're focused on it Blue Zones any other brands or just trends in general in the CPG world that I've kind of got you excited or petered interest for things you're kind of watching oh man I mean I just I it's such a fun industry and category to be part of because we all eat and so it's it's part of daily life I spent way too much time in in grocery stores yeah um you know I think more than anything just just hopeful that people start to pay more attention to the the the nutrients and the things that really matter um you know I feel like protein just protein is an easy trend for people to wanna latch onto because it enables you to eat more bacon cheeseburgers um but that's the same reason that that the Atkins trend took off right like oh I can now eat lots of bacon um and you know and people lose sight of what's actually important and where we we are falling short as as a as a culture which is yeah fiber and vitamins and minerals hydration yeah um even when you talk about the GLP1 patients few people on those um which I'm sure can do a lot of great good things for society but people are using it as as a as a shortcut and not putting in the work to say drink extra water and work out and lift and um eat a well rounded diet not just more protein so um I'm just hopeful that that there's a little bit more kind of focus and resurgence on on overall nutrition yeah um that that's what food should be offering not just calories but actual nutrition and uh I mean you know the reality is we we can make really healthy things taste really good and they do I think my my lesson from you know planters and vital farms is that the uh it's not a it's not a choice between taste and health very often the healthiest things actually have more flavor more taste and so it's a it's a win win um and so I'm just looking forward to seeing more of that in the marketplace I agree with that for sure good way to close it but yeah Scott has been great really appreciate the time any uh what's the best place for uh just want people to follow along with you best place these days to follow along with everything that's going on with Blue Zones Kitchen sure well I'm Blue Zones Kitchen is is across media so you know find Blue Zones Kitchen on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and LinkedIn um I'm mostly focused on LinkedIn personally and uh if I could ever be of help to anyone or just be a sounding board I like I said I love the industry and you know helping out small brands and startups is something I've been doing since since I moved to Austin and yeah happy to do it so reach out anytime on LinkedIn awesome thanks god appreciate it man I think that's the pod alright may not have a a business model a beverage brand with a formulation to kind of enable the brand familiar the average consumer is about this some really early stage founders that are assuming you are familiar with certified B Corp as well in terms of those first four balls that you launch some of the keys that are what were some of the kind of key variables that were it seems like it's kind of like historically any strong opinions on that I mean if you're if you're if you're a Nabisco brand let's just say a brand's been in market for a while how can a brand from your experience shifting back more a bit more of the Blues Zones you know early stage something that come one or two thinking about entering into this category yeah the layout can be improved I would I would love to be able to still kind of leverage a similar strategy