Jordan Wilson - Building Powder-Stick Efficiency in an RTD Can

On this episode, we’re joined by Jordan Wilson, Co-Founder & CEO of Sap’s, the clean, canned hydration brand built to deliver “powder-stick efficiency in an RTD can.” 

Jordan opens up his R&D playbook (coconut-water powder, a small amount of natural sugar, shiitake/adaptogens, and acidity/mouthfeel), explains why Sap’s moved from sleeves to digitally printed cans, and breaks down the realities of scaling with regional DSDs. 

We get tactical on EOS and core metrics, hiring, H-E-B’s flex-item authorization and how Jordan is working to solidify a permanent place on the shelf, c-stores, demos and the “experiential channel” Sap’s is building through run clubs, golf, and pickleball. 

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Episode Highlights:

💧 Formulating a daily-use hydration RTD in a can
🧪 Iterating flavor at scale: acid profile, off-note fixes, “easier to chug” mouthfeel
🥫 Why the can matters: sustainability, shelf pop, and social cues vs. PET
🎨 Visual identity that signals “pre-sugar Gatorade” trust
🧵 Sleeves vs. digitally printed cans: COGS, line speed, and operational complexity
🚚 Distributors: when small DSDs beat big houses, and how to make both win
🏪 H-E-B flex authorization
🛒 C-store strategy
🎟️ Building an “experiential channel” (run clubs, golf, pickleball) 
📊 Operating cadence: EOS rocks and scorecards
👥 Why Sap’s hired a Chief Sales Officer
🔭 Brands & trends Jordan is watching across hydration, better-for-you, and athleisure

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Table of Contents:

00:41:28 - Intro and origin story
03:20:22 - Formulation and R&D
07:28:15 - The impact of the can packaging form factor
10:48:21 - Visual identity and packaging design
12:15:17 - Sleeves vs digital printed cans
14:45:00 - Recs for the brand identity and vis id development process
15:49:06 - Distributors, big vs small, how to optimize for success
19:41:01 - Retail, flex auth at H-E-B, pushing velocity, demos
23:28:20 - C-stores
26:27:06 - Sap’s “experiential channel”
27:55:20 - Metrics, EOS
29:10:12 - Hiring, the new Chief Sales Officer
31:30:00 - Brands and trends Jordan is following

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Links:

Sap’s - https://www.sapsoriginal.com
Follow Jordan on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-wilson-13209159/
Follow me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/ 

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out KitPrint.

Transcript

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Today we're speaking with Jordan Wilson co founder and CEO of SAPS a better for you hydration and recovery beverage brand stick efficiency in an RTD can which I'm excited to dive into prior to Saph Jordan was the CEO of Biolite head of Ops Product development and sourcing for Onward Reserve a men's wear brand so definitely a lot of great experience in the CPG space and let's just say physical product space first off just for the listeners Jordan that aren't that familiar with SAPS give us quick lay the land in terms of origin story why behind the brand core products flavors you guys offer and then maybe just a few places people can get their hands on them and then we'll go from there yeah awesome Adam thanks for having me my backgrounds you know you you listed it earlier I've been a part of scaling multiple consumer brands I've always been on the opside you know never really on the the sales or marketing side um really in the last company that I was a part of Learned the hydration segment Learned um kind of what customers were looking for what was working what wasn't and felt like I gained a really good understanding of that segment over the course of three years a lot of independent understanding of the science behind hydration and by the time I left that felt like I had a pretty good grasp of where the puck was going in hydration wanted to create a brand that was not necessarily catered towards the elite athletes of the world and not necessarily super medicinal like the Pedialyte of the world but something that really spoke to active individuals that are just trying to live a healthier life and then beyond the brand kind of the science of it was recognizing that the average person is just really lacking in a lot of minerals and understanding that they need a better healthier option for you that they could consume on a consistent basis cause you really will feel the difference and so my theory was let's if we can create a more natural Gatorade that doesn't have all the sugar and junk with some added functional benefits people will you know really get behind this and so um that was kind of the the vision behind the brand launched we launched in March of 2023 um we've been at it for a couple years you know based here at Austin Texas um we're now in about 400 retailers across um three or four states Texas Colorado Oregon and then a little bit in the southeast if you live in those states you can find us in independent markets coffee shops some grocery chains like H E B Central Market market of choice some C stores like Plat Pantry up in Oregon Weavers in Colorado so really starting to gain a lot of traction as independent markets and you know hopefully soon continue to break into more chains we're also available on Amazon and at our website at saps original.com awesome love that plaid pantry is a throwback I went to school up in Portland and I would definitely hit up some plaid pantries in my day yeah we we love them I feel like it's the perfect test for a young brand to see like can you work in a store like that and if you can I think you can work just about anywhere but for sure it's been a really fun account to work with that's awesome well yeah let's let's uh rewind back to those early days initial R&D formulation stage yeah that powder stick efficiency and an RTD can what did her or or does that look like in your mind actually from a a formulation standpoint yeah so I think that the the thing that really stuck out to me about RTD hydration and why I think the last company I was at worked so well is it actually worked so many of the drinks in the space and in the RTD format are are pretty bad and powder you know you've had the rise of liquid IV element now there's like a ton of different powder brands generally speaking those have been a lot cleaner better formulations better electrolyte ratios really felt like the science and the the ingenuity happening over there wasn't existing kind of in the RTD space and it just seemed like a a huge kind of miss like I think powder has its place but at many times like a ready to drink product is you know even more convenient especially if you can grab it and go totally and so that was you know a lot of the inspiration for what we did I spent years really like understanding the science behind you know hydration how it worked like even going back to the early days of when Gatorade was first created like it was actually a really good product it was super clean it worked they just turned it into this mass marketing machine that has you know four times the amount of sugar that the original formulation has and bringing kind of the sports drink in a way back to its roots based on effectiveness but then incorporating all these like really new cool nootropics and functional ingredients to create an added benefit that we were looking for was the goal yeah I remember Gatorade way back in the early days I think they actually had a canned version like way times as much sugar too yeah can Gatorade is it hits different so that was definitely a huge inspiration for us yeah that makes sense but yeah I think I think I read you spent like 18 months in iterating till you found formulation and process that you felt like worked and passed muster without giving away any you know trade secrets I'm just kind of curious what were some of those key variables that you were playing around with and tweaks you made between that first version and that last version where you felt like this is ready to go to market yeah so we started working on it in January of 2022 we went through probably 40 to 50 iterations if I had to guess over the course of about nine months I think it it started from a place of me wanting like I had a laundry list of ingredients that I was like okay all of these things are awesome I think people could use more of these in their daily lives and the functional benefits of those ingredients tie in to why people buy hydration drinks so you know some people buy them for athletic recovery or performance some people buy for hangovers some people buy for just general kind of daily wellness and hydration and so I wanted to include and without getting too complicated like a simple but yet effective thing that could speak to all those different use cases yep and so over time we kind of started just whittling down from that laundry list of ingredients to here's the you know 20 different functional ingredients we wanna roll with um knowing that we really needed a carrier or like a base foundation to kind of always come back to and that for us was coconut powder so coconut you know incredible at hydrating great for natural sugar source great for potassium but coconuts really lacking in some other things like salt and so we basically added back to that to achieve the ratios that we're looking yeah packaging form factor versus the typical plastic bottle from an RTD perspective impact formulation like metallic taste issues you had to work around that you don't have to work around you know with plastic if at all or maybe it didn't have any impact I mean it had a lot of impact on my my sleep the first year of business you know like my worst nightmare was always getting a call in the middle of the night hearing like all of our cans exploded and all that cause our our formulator initially told us they're like you can't do this in a can it's not gonna work hmm and I was like no we're gonna figure this out um we're gonna we're gonna get this done and so we went through I hired some X can engineers that have been at Coke for like 40 years they were consultants to come in and help with the project we ran you know all of the like ball tests that you needed to do to confirm things and so we kind of figured out a sweet spot with like these level of Chloride levels with these ingredients can kind of get you to that that level you need to have so you don't create corrosion in the can so it definitely made it more challenging but I think it's given us a little bit of a moat and it's helped us kind of achieve the the unique brand that we we wanted to create yeah that's great and then I think at the beginning of this year I think is it am I right that you launched a a more a newer updated formulation that resulted in like a 80 90% uh trial to repeat lift assuming I read that correctly like that's huge I'm kind of curious what were those key changes you made and what was the hardest part if you had to make that drastic of changes yeah no it was it was a big overhaul we had you know we've been in the business for a year and a half at that point and it was like it was just getting too hard on us we're like we know the liquid's gotta change like this isn't working we need to pivot and I wish we had pivoted faster but it it just takes a while to do a formula overhaul the biggest two things we were hearing from customers was the liquid's a little too thick it needs to you know be easier to chug and there's a little bit too much like earthiness happening and I think that was the shiitake mushroom that was driving that and so we set out over the course of about six months saying how do we keep the same kind of effectiveness that we're looking for in this formula while making it more mass market appealed and so we're able to trim some ingredients down replace some different acids and I tell you what like the since January and coming out with a new liquid it's been crazy to see like just the amount of even same store solo growth happening like the amount of people that have really resonated with the new liquid and it's definitely not perfect we got a lot of work to do on that front we're kind of always improving but as far as like big overhaul um and improvement like we definitely made that happen that's awesome that's great man I'm sure that was not a a an easy process but that's awesome thinking back to those early days that v one of the brand identity I'm not sure if you've read Ramping Your Brand which seems to be a pretty impressive book in CPG at this point but I think he talks about how you know premium pricing really comes from like as you were thinking about building out the visual identity packaging design what were some of those key variables that are top of mind for you and yeah what were the key things that were included in the brief yeah that book's incredible I mean I I try to go back and read it at least like once a month and there's just so many good learnings in it you know for us it was the goal of the drink at the end of the day was to always leave people feeling like it actually really did something for them and it it met them in that place of need helped them feel better after they had it and then presenting it in like a cool interesting way and I think the wave of you know like socializing through activity almost like you like the rise of run clubs the rise of pickleball like all of these things that we're now doing instead of going out with a at a bar or whatever like it's kind of the perfect beverage for that because it it doesn't stick out like a you know bulky plastic bottle it fits right into that that social scene and so for us the one thing we always wanted to communicate was this product is effective for recovery I think you know as far as like the presentation of that we've tried to really highlight you know different benefits associated with the drink throughout the can we've focused on the electrolyte content the no added sugar the adaptogens on the side but without doing it in like a super sciency way has always been the goal it needs to be feel kind of nostalgic retro cool and I think the package is you know uniquely does that right now totally yep I agree with that I think at some point digitally printed can which definitely seems to be the trend tell me a bit about that journey and kind of why behind you made that switch and yeah any downsides you found about making that switch you know sleeves sleeves have their benefit I think operationally it's a huge headache you know finding the right co packer that can apply the sleeves if they can't then you're having them applied pre shipment it's just it just adds a layer of complexity that's kind of unnecessary and so um really it was once we could find the right digital printer that we trusted that we felt good about working with it just made sense to make that switch it also has helped quite a bit with you know the recyclability of the product which really important to a lot of our customers so definitely would recommend it to most I think there's there's some downsides with digital where you know you get a little bit more chipping and the I guess the like product can get a little bit more damaged at time but to us it felt like kind of elevating the brand or taking it to the next step moving from sleeves to digital yeah has the from the the the packaging design standpoint has the core I guess not just packaging design but the brand identity in general has the core messaging look and feel the brand and packaging remain pretty consistent since launch or have you been have there been any big changes or rebrands you've gone through I know it's only been a few years but yeah the tweaks have been relatively small we've kept the core theme of these these red you know very bright red cans red orange we've really tried to make the flavor call outs more prominent in both the front and you know adding a flavoring at the top but the core stayed the same and it's really starting to pay dividends now that we're getting placements where you have lots of facings because it it just you walk in you see it in a cooler or on a floor stand or whatever like it really gets your attention and that was the goal from the beginning was creating this kind of block of advertisement that you know really works at retail we didn't want to disrupt that with having like each flavor is a different color can so yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense well yeah just thinking back to that part packaging design process for a founder that's just about to kick off this this same process what are any of few things that just come to top of mind or tips you'd give him or things to watch out for that could potentially trip him up along the way it's a great question you know I think we should have done a better job of just having conversations with our end user about the packaging before we launched as well as um you know retail buyers like it's funny you go into a random gas station down the street and it's like the guys that are making the buying decisions there are they're a wealth of knowledge and cause they see products come in and out you know every day and you really can learn a ton just from getting some advice from them and I wish we had done a little bit of more of that you know from the beginning so yeah yeah that's super helpful shifting gears a little bit talking about distribution pretty sure you've just mostly focused on smaller regional distributors for now I'm curious like what have you found working with those smaller regional ones are the big differences between the smaller players and you know some of the big guys whether it's kkhei Unifi in terms of how to work with them how they work workflow you know expected yeah it's there's definitely not one right answer it's just been kind of our preferred way of working pros and cons on both sides I think the smaller regional distributors there's so much more of a relational component that's there and particularly when you can show them that you're doing the hard stuff you can show that kind of very consistent month over month growth it's a lot easier to get them excited about things and you can go out and work the market with them do ride alongs like it's it's just an easier way to I think win over such a key part of the sales channel for you and so it's been you know kind of an ideal scenario for us as a small brand I'm sure there will be a point in time where we need to work with the broadliners but seeing as you know much most of our regional guys are are beer houses and they've just been getting killed the last couple years and so being kind of this alcohol alternative I can help them grow their portfolio and maybe supplement some of the losses from the alcohol sales it's been a really good match so far to really maximize success what what are one or two things that come top of mind I mean it all starts with communication that's the first thing they've got to see that you're out in the market doing the hard stuff merchandising getting new placements all those kinds of things it can take a lot of time before you really do get that buy in but I think that's a quick way to earn trust we have a program we've implemented with all of our distributors where basically we give them you know a certain amount of samples for the team to use on a a monthly basis being that most time they're out outside like sweating working in the warehouse like it's been a you know cool thing to see them actually like really gravitate to the product and get used to using it and then lastly we brought in a a chief sales guy in October a lot of distributor management experience and I think having somebody in that seat that understands distribution to a much larger degree than I do kind of be the the point of contact is really helps those relationships blossom yeah hold your distributor accountable to a certain extent or yeah what kind of levers do you have to be able to hold them accountable man I wish Gus was here for that question it's definitely a Gus question um it starts with holding yourself accountable and doing what you say you're gonna do we go sell in a you know flex space in H E B and tell the buyer yeah we're gonna be here to

you at 6: 18:22

00am to help you set up this incap and doing that making sure it's stocks like once you hold yourself to that kind of standard it's a lot easier to ask the distributor to do the same thing for you yeah yeah distributors are not at this point people that you can rely on from the get go to go be your outsourced sales people like it just takes time to win them over and so viewing it in the same way that you would do business with anybody is how can I build this relationship and make their job easier yeah one of the things that we implemented when Gus came on board was when we started doing these distributor kind of all hands meetings we had a individual folder made for each employee that we handed them with you know their own talking points about the product different things that maybe they would appreciate or enjoy and making it kind of personal to them so it's not just hey XYZ distributor like go do this for us like no we're we're a team we're gonna work with you each individually here's your you know point of contact that you need to reach out to if you have a question if you want to do a ride along please let us know just making sure that we're there to support each individual that's part of that team yeah those are great tips super helpful yeah I think I read it sounds like you're working in in kind of a flex item authorization capacity with HEB at the moment which is super exciting for and kind of key tactics you're focusing on to really maximize velocity and you know get as many stores as possible to to pick up the brand yeah I mean of course I'd love to be in every HEB tomorrow right um but just being realistic and knowing we gotta focus on the ones that we know we can win initially and and just really hone in on about 20 locations do a really good job with those we've kind of pinpointed the ones that we want to win at just based on existing retailers in the area um going in on those with those stores at least once a week touching base with the grocery manager staying in touch with them about upcoming you know flex base that's available and then you know we haven't gotten um corporate demo approval yet it's something we're working on but the the kind of scrappy demos like what we like to call them we'll go in you know buy a bunch of cans and then as people are checking out leaving the store just introduce ourselves you know hand out a free can to people that's the kind of stuff like it's crazy to see there's one H E B in particular we've been doing that very consistently and I ran into an employee of that store at an event last weekend she immediately came up to me and just was singing our praises couldn't stop talking about how excited you know she was to be working with us and that's when it really starts to feel like we're doing this we're in this together we're doing this together it's not just a transactional relationship like we're here to support you know the local employees and what they're doing and um you know again it's relationships at the end of the day that are gonna make the difference so those stores those kind of informal demos that you're doing until you get that at the corporate level approval and all stores are totally good with that like they have no problem with that they're supportive of you doing that kind of informal approach for now yeah I mean we haven't asked permission to do that but right no one told you not to I think they're cool with it you know the employees think it's funny and every now and then you know they jump in and grab a can and all that so that's awesome but I mean it's just it's common sense right it's like if this person's in this store today they're probably gonna this is probably their local grocery store they're gonna be back next week and hopefully they like the product enough to then buy it the next time they're there yeah totally what's like what does it take to is it just a matter of you know biding your time and and she be corporate just needs to eventually you know I guess variables that it takes to get approved at that official corporate demo level there's a lot of red tape as always with you know some of these organizations it's it's just continuing to stay persistent and get that approval as far as kind of rolling out to the larger portfolio I mean we've we've shown some really great sales so far in the first 30 days but you know we've got a long way to go and I think particularly with this flex space you can lose it you know real quick if if those 20 stores that we're focused on um if we can get to a point where we're maintaining that space we won't have to worry about getting constantly pulled off the shelf maybe it's moved to a different spot then that means okay we've got these in a good spot we're moving a lot of cases we can start trying to expanding outside of those 20 but in other cities I mean we don't have a great distribution solution for Houston or for San Antonio um and so we're kind of building we're building it as we're going it's like do really well here start having conversations with the right distributor partners for those other cities and hopefully we can you know get those things wrong pretty soon I think that the C Store channel been a big channel for you guys and it seem like it's a big channel for for a lot of brands but it doesn't always feel like it's a channel that's always talked about quite as much I'm just kind of curious from your perspective what's unique about this channel compared to I guess conventional retail yeah I mean C stores um I think long term for beverage that's how you win you have to be able to win in C store um kind of in mass market so you're you're really never gonna achieve kind of the large scale you need to I think the the biggest things that have worked for us is first off um earning placement in the right place so there's you know a handful of C stores around town um and then also I mean you know Plaid Pantry we're like slotted right next to Gator Light and that's to us is like that's the golden ticket if we can land right there um we know we're gonna do well also make making sure that um you know you've got shelf strips there you've got your price clearly marked just making sure it looks professional um can add a huge lift we granted we still have a lot of work to do on the C store front and we're still I you know it just takes a level of kind of maturing and and getting bigger but so far those are the thing those are the things that we've seen that have worked really well I think in particular the pricing sweet spot in C Store is running like a 2 for 5 promo if you're you know at two 99 that's usually like a really good volume threshold for promos are the is the distributor and network is that yeah the same regional distributors that you're working with are in um yeah conventional retail they're they're also handling those C stores for us I mean it it depends on which chain you're talking like I know 7 elevens got their preferred partners the the really the big like mass market distributors that handle you know the thousands of C store locations we haven't been able to break into those we hope to at some point one day there's also like the buying groups you know down here in Austin there's a gamma which represents I think about 800 stores um you know it cost money to to get in with those folks but our strategy has been let's go get into the ones that we can that we fit that fit that like area that we wanna win in like for instance there's a 7 11 down in South Austin that carries the product there's plenty of those gamma stores I mentioned and if we can show traction and progress there at some point we'll get the opportunity to kind of work with the larger buying group of the larger chain I think you also mentioned something about you guys are playing around with or working in what you called like an experiential channel which I'm really not sure what that means I'm I'm very curious like what yeah what what can you tell me on this front yeah um I mean I think when you're building a consumer brand it's not purely just about sales at least you know when you're our size like you have to also then play in the right places where like your consumers gonna be and kind of add depth and layer to the brand and so we've identified in each market that we're in like these are the hot spots we need to be in that represent kind of our core customer so whether it's like a coffee shop that every like cyclist you know starts a ride or ends a ride out of or if it's a golf course where we know like you know a lot of people that we want to get in front of play golf here or you know here in Austin we've got a place called Butler Pitch and putt it's incredible it's I think they sell more beer than any bar in Austin it's crazy the amount of people that come through there but they're all tied back to kind of the activity that we're trying to promote as a brand which is getting outside socializing being active moving your body and when people are introduced to your brand in that setting it just is it it has more of an effect of winning them over as a customer than it does necessarily them discovering you you know at their local grocery chain so we uh we definitely prioritize those experiential accounts you know it's meeting that that person when they're in need when they're sweating and I would say that's kind of how we've built a lot of the grassroots momentum in the different markets that we're in yeah that seems like that seems like a really smart strategy from a metrics standpoint what does your let's just call it your your daily dashboard look like so I'm a huge proponent of a business book called traction it goes under the EOS system and so we have that system implemented you know not to the t but more or less and they're they're really big on a weekly scorecard and so we have the weekly meeting where we come together everyone's accountable for certain numbers and those things are being tracked on a weekly basis so I'd say that's kind of more relevant to the daily but for me personally I mean I'm checking I'm checking you know sales that come in from the prior day I'm checking inventory levels every day I'm checking depletions you know at the store level um those those things really fuel like your understanding of what's happening kind of in the day to day like oh hey this store is popping off what's going on over here was it this event that we did that's you know making this happen but I think from a team structure and how we evaluate the business those weekly things are critical so that we can come to that weekly meeting scan through the list of you know maybe eight numbers and know generally like where we stand as a business yeah yeah tell me about yeah and um yeah then maybe what the team looks like today yeah um man I've made every probably bad hiring decision you can so I've probably Learned more what not to do you know we started we started early with some people that we thought were really good fits they had a lot of experience came in you know knew a lot of stuff about space but culturally it wasn't a fit and then we just weren't ready for that I had to basically clean house it was just me for a while and slowly we've you know added a couple of people um we've gotten to a point where I was like I gotta get a salesperson I can really lean on to you know um fill the gaps and some of the voids that I don't I'm not able to fill Gus was he was with another brand at the time he I think he heard a podcast interview I did reached out over LinkedIn was like hey I'm really into what you're doing like I wanna meet and talk um he came down here we got together we just really hit it off and he kind of laid out like selling me on himself hey this is what I think I can do like I'm really passionate about what you're trying to build I wanna I wanna jump on board and help and at that point I I couldn't really say no and so it was just figuring out the right comp structure and making sure we're aligned on a lot of different things and he's been he's been incredible for the business so far and uh I think mainly because of the the like cultural fit that he was and his willingness to you know get his hands dirty and do the hard stuff but also because we really took time to kind of date and get to know each other and make sure we're really aligned on what we're trying to build so what's the the biggest learning lesson you have about hiring over the past two years not all experience is equal and just because somebody's done what you've you're wanting to do or wanting to achieve before doesn't mean they're they're the right fit and generally you're got like if you meet that person face to face and within 30 minutes you're like I don't know like don't try and justify it to make it work it just means it's not a fit no matter how good their resume looks that's that's my biggest takeaway last question Jordan any any brands in the CBG space or more broadly just any trends that you're kind of following things that that's got you excited at all man we're like in the golden age of CPG right now it's it really it's fun to see you know all the different things that are happening I I mean I play really really close attention to our space in general just to kind of see how people are innovating and thinking about things I've been really impressed with the growth of some brands in the like THC kind of wellness space yeah I think what breeze has done is incredible like it's mind blowing to kind of and I love that they're very transparent about it there's there's certainly other brands in that space I'm I'm paying attention to the other one that comes to mind is um this whole movement around a to dairy and like better for you um better for you milk and developed not a close relationship but like we kind of know each other with the founder of Laurel's and so I love just watching what she's doing she's having a ton of success killing it you know it's you can always learn a thing or two from founders and other categories and try and kind of iterate some of the things that they're doing into your space it's like every couple of years there's this like category that if you're first to market you do it well you're gonna win yeah totally and you just you respect those people a lot cause you know a lot of money is like moving towards that segment and if you can kind of rise out of out of that you know midst of all these other brands it's it's really impressive yeah totally yeah Jordan this has been awesome a lot of great insights here things would be super helpful for other up and coming founders and operators what's the best place for people to follow along with you and then what's the best place for people to follow along with SAPS as well yeah um I'm trying to get more active on posting on LinkedIn so probably there for my updates and stuff for SAPS I would say Instagram SAPS original is the tag you know if you want to support us you can buy some on the website or Amazon or you know find hopefully find a local retailer that we're at those would definitely be the the main places cool perfect yeah Jordan appreciate it this has been great um should I just share this one out yeah thank you thanks for having me with a goal to deliver powder in terms of your goal and I you know when probably the formulation wasn't 4 did the the can yeah definitely one crystal clear promise and not featureitis you shifted from shrink sleeves to deductions and margin impact and all that kind of stuff how can a brand truly partner with their distributor how how have you found our our ways to I think just viewing like what's been your what's your strategy look like as slot you in from a timing perspective or is there other and then what's really key to winning in this channel generally yeah you just hired a pretty big time chief sales officer that hiring journey how you found him or her and