Eric Girard - Inside the Pickle-in-a-Pouch Licensing Playbook

On this episode, we’re joined by Eric Girard, VP of Sales & Marketing at Van Holten’s, to break down all things licensing and co-branding. 

He explains how the first deal started when a Tapatío licensing agency approached them at a trade show, how he had to sell it internally (“why pay a royalty?”), and how mentioning Tapatío suddenly opened doors with category managers - 7-Eleven even helped launch it in 2019. 

Eric details their development rule of thumb (have a signed deal or at least royalty/terms outlined before going too far) and why they aim for the “essence” of a partner’s flavor rather than an exact match (Tapatío took ~27 iterations; the vinegar system sets guardrails). 

He gets specific on deal structure—keep royalties south of 10%, at least three-year terms, agreements focused on style guides—and differences by partner (e.g., Warner Bros/Pickle Rick is more structured than Impact Confections/Warheads). And Eric lays out the margin philosophy: the product must be profitable, but he’s okay with a lower margin if it helps sell core dill pickles and gets brokers and category managers leaning in.

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Episode Highlights:

🥒 Origin of the Pickle-In-A-Pouch and why ambient single-serve wins
🤝 Licensing & co-branding: choosing partners, briefs, and approvals
💸 Deal structure, royalties, MDF, and protecting margin
🧪 Multi-flavor production: brines, line changes, and QA at scale
🎨 Visual identity and packaging updates that drive velocity
⛽ C-store realities: planograms, secondary placement, and DSD
📣 Marketing resourcing: what to insource, what to outsource
🎪 Trade shows that matter and how to actually win them
🔭 Flavors, formats, and cultural trends Eric is tracking

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Table of Contents:

00:45:18 – Intro and overview, origin of the pouch
02:32:36 – How the pickle space has evolved, where it’s going
05:34:15 – Licensing and co-branding
14:13:16 – Licensing deal structure, margin philosophy
18:18:20 – Licensor and licensee commitments
22:01:27 – Recs for licensing-focused leaders
23:25:25 – Different flavors for different markets?
25:21:23 – Production logistics for multiple flavors, multiple formulations
27:20:12 – Visual identity and packaging design
29:44:06 – C-stores
31:24:03 – Marketing resources
32:53:19 – Winning at tradeshows
36:01:03 – Brands and trends Eric is tracking

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Links:

Van Holten’s – https://vanholtenpickles.com
Follow Eric on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-girard-a80782/
Follow me on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out KitPrint.

Transcript

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all right welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with Eric Gerard who is the VP of sales and marketing at Van Holton's Pickle in a pouch the infamous pickle brand that partners with iconic names like warheads and Pringles just to name a few Eric's been a sales and marketing leader in the CPG space for quite a while so excited to get to learn about all his experience and expertise but uh yeah let's jump in I mean I guess just for the first off Eric just for the listeners the ones that aren't that familiar with the van holdings maybe just kind of give us quick lay of the land in terms of origin story you know and I think there was a purchase at some point some of the core products you guys offer and maybe just a few places people can get their hands on them and then we'll go from there yeah thank you for your time um you know we are a old school brand that has taken off and acted very entrepreneurial despite you know that that kind of legacy that we have Van Holten's has been incorporated since 1898 so we've been doing business that long originally it was a Dutch immigrant that was doing vinegar and things like that evolved into relishes sauerkraut and in 1949 they put a pickle in a pouch uh not sure exactly that our owner said maybe they think it had something to do with like shortages in jars or something but they were very the Van Holten's family was very entrepreneurial with that flash forward to the early 90s uh Jim Burns our current president owner Steve Burns his father purchased the company in distress is probably the best way to say it without getting into a lot of details and got involved and really identified pickle in a pouch is something different than relish is something different than sauerkraut and and leaned into it and over the years before I was with the company really focused everything on pickle in a pouch moving out of sauerkraut moving out of relish and you know to today uh you know we are the uh the the the gas station pickle or the C store pickle and you know it's something that you know the relish and and all that went away and and we've been able to focus on that so a lot of times I'm with category managers I say we're the pickle company that's not a pickle company we're a snack company that on our snack happens to be pickles I know you've been with Ben Holton's for quite a while I think it's you know how's the pickle category evolved since you came on board and maybe what are some like and things that have basically not changed at all yeah so it'll be close to 17 years for me that I've held some sort of role with Van Holten's Pickles starting as a regional sales manager you know going out to wholesalers going out to retailers trying to earn shelf space uh there's a retailer here in southern Wisconsin northern Illinois Kelly's markets and category manager said to me I don't know about a year or two ago yeah he said he used to come in begging for one skew to be in our like sandwich cold case and he said now I have two or three of your skills one or two of your competitors and then there's even a third brand I'm thinking about coming in so you know we we'd like to think that we're in the forefront of it we definitely had some competitive pressures too that pushed us but you know we really opened it up as a snack and as competitors have come in we've still seen our sales grow uh you know they've definitely taken like you know o snap pickles for example taking a slice of the pie but they've grown the pie so you know leaning into that snack thing kind of snack first pickle second even though that sounds silly has really been successful for us yeah that's great 10 years from now do you think there's gonna be any big evolutions kind of things you're seeing on the horizon or this kind of steady continued growth and more and more popularity as you've seen over the past few years yeah I mean I think that you know there's a couple different dynamics there's kind of the the whole you know people are eating differently in general right you know I'm a kid of the 80s and you know it was just sugar right give me as much Oreos 7 11 slurpees you know all that now you see people leaning into more savory you see the keto and the whole 30 I mean pickles are basically zero calorie no fat uh pickle juice itself not just Van Holten's but anyone's is is helps you rehydrate so there's there's that whole kind of function of like you know it it's a a fun way to snack and get refreshed without overfilling so there's that aspect of it you know we we don't lean into a lot of health claims and stuff like that you know we just want the people that know know that and they'll seek that out but then you know from the it's not quite as a blank palette as yogurt where you can add a flavor to it but a pickle is a palette that you can add things to that you can add buffalo or hot or more sour or you know we've even played around a lot with the sweet flavors so I think you will continue to see us and other companies start to now really lean into you know how can we make that pickle a different a flavor occasion a fun flavor occasion that's more than just a a slice on top of your burger yeah pickle phase too true good point dabbling into the weeds a bit I know IP licensing and kind of co branding has is and and has been a core part of the the growth strategy as of late at least we just curious kind of taking a step back what point did the did Ben Holden start exploring partnerships like this and I'm kind of curious like thinking back what kind of as you're following along on Instagram or TikTok to the decision to start investing yeah and you know this going further back in my timeline with the company that yeah we have core flavors of dill and hot which make up you know 80+ percent of our sales you know and then we have sour and garlic and it's always been those four core flavors other competitors they have versions of those flavors you know we we've launched Chipotle a competitor launched a chili lime and we never really saw that our new flavors go it quite quite actually kind of bombed and it kind of the same with our competitors and you know looking at the space I mean I'll be totally honest is we were approached by tapatio at a trade show or technically a licensing agency for tapatio to say hey this is a great brand what you guys have and we think that the tapatio and again I was very aware just from a consumer aspect of how much hot food is getting popular you know watching Takis watching Hot Cheetos watching that stuff really get there so it was a bit of a sell point honestly uh yeah I'd say this I had great relationships with the owner and my coworkers but it took me a while to sell that internally because they are like hey Chipotle bond uh you know these other things we've done as a bond you know we sell Dillon hot pickles why would we pay a royalty to do this but when I started asking around in tapatio they're a great partner um they allowed us to to pre kind of pre sell and ask questions of category managers I said hey I'm I'm not gonna say I just want to ask and I got amazingly positive feedback and what blew me away was I had category managers respond to me give me meetings that wouldn't respond to my emails before when I mentioned the tapatio wow so so that was massively eye opening for me so we launched tapatio what I've done and what's nice about being in a small company where you're not siloed I'm talking to customers and I'm talking to product development and I'm looking at the financials so I know what it costs to pay the royalties and the impact that has on us but I'm taking that to 7 11 and and 7 11 actually helped us launch tapatio in 2019 so we launched with a partner and and that was really you know eye opening for what that could do for us and from that point I created an Instagram account and just started following CPG companies like crazy and you know the the the pandemic definitely delayed us cause we were we were just booming with sales during the pandemic we we all went crazy in 2021 so that kind of held on our held our innovation back a little cause we're just making Dylan hot pickles but you know that that tapatio I would say is our gateway drug to licensing and it it was a great start yeah that's a great product to start with for sure and look at additional licensing partners what are some of like the I don't know parameters it may be like an actual you know true checklist or maybe it's just kind of a rough things that something feels good some of like a gut feeling but are there any yeah certain parameters or qualifications that from your mind a brand must meet in order to qualify or or be a good fit whether it's like brand equity we're you know we're a small privately held company you know I'm responsible for the PNL we spend little to nothing on data and marketing research if you took that you take you know $25,000 and said would you rather spend that on a slotting fee to get into a store a licensing fee to have a new brand I would rather do that it you know can be challenging sometimes when you know it's a data oriented world but to circle back to your question we take our results seriously but we don't take ourselves too seriously we sell pickles in a bag it's a silly product everyone laughs at it everyone smiles when I tell them what my job is whether for whatever reason they smile they smile and you know so when I'm out there looking for brands I'm looking for brands that are fun and have that pop culture feel that we have you know we'll talk a little bit about our recent package redesign but we did one back in 2020 also which I really think was a catalyst to getting us on more I noticed immediately again I was the Instagram guy back then you know up until the past couple years I was the social media person I shouldn't be now cause I'm too old and out of it for that but I noticed immediately people started holding our product up and taking selfies with it especially with tapatio you know so I just sought out brands and honestly warheads impact confections I just said man this this Instagram feed feels like what I want our brand to feel like and I know sour is incredibly popular and pickles are sour honestly I think the owner thought I was high when I suggested reaching out to them and I did they're they're literally uh their factory I had no idea was 45 minutes away from our factory wow their director of marketing on LinkedIn said I have this crazy idea and uh Lindsay said let's talk about it and we did that's awesome you know and and I continue that today we have always have conversations going we've had conversations going a lot of NDA's on this and some don't pan out right you know whether it's the flavor is not quite right you know'cause again it's it's a pickle so you there's still so much you can do you know or the brand changes their mind or we change our mind you know there there are amazing you know billion dollar brands out there that you know are very well known and things like that but if they don't have that fun factor it wouldn't look good on a pickle in a pouch like a like the Pringles head it's not gonna fit you mentioned getting getting the flavor right that was one question I was I was thinking about I was like you know once you've decision has been made to push forward on on a IP licensing partnership like tapatio or warheads R&D and like formulation process look like you know it's it's not easy I mean a tapatio is our first one so I mean I don't know there are like 27 different iterations of that uh you know we've gotten better understanding how to work with flavor in it so that that's helped but uh you know it's a it's a strong vinegar flavor so there's gonna be guardrails on what you can do from a sample we usually with a partner prefer a a signed deal or at least a a rough structure on what royalties and terms are before we go too far but you know we'll uh we will look for once we kind of have that in line is we'll look for the essence of that flavor that's what our owner says you can't do an exact match for tapatio you can't do an exact match for Pringles but you want the essence of what that is and how that plays with a pickle so I mean there have been zero that we've made it and said this works we're done because we have to get it to a point where we say does this work and from a costing perspective you know we're introducing new ingredients and things we haven't used it probably cost more to make and all of our licensed products have a production cost than our No. 1 selling dill pickle got uh you know so we don't like you know obviously that can be in a range it won't be too big so once we we kind of get that then we have to send it to the partner and you know then you're doing tastings you're trying you're doing virtual tastings you're telling them how to slice it you know with a Mega Chamoy which is a Mexican company they're all in Mexico they don't even understand what a pickle in a bag is right you have their their marketing person Ali she's just sharp as a tack and she saw this trend on social media like I did but you know then she has to explain it to a high level executive at this guy in Guadalajara of what is this thing we're even eating yeah so I can definitely be it's not just this brand is cool and let's do it it's a lot of work yeah for sure I'm sure there's like goes into it you mentioned like a few minutes ago about when you approached your team which the initial deal that Tapatio won and got pushed back like oh what why are we gonna pay royalty on this front similar kind of story kind of I built previously in in the cannabis space kind of licensing partnerships are are are pretty common but I would say the large majority of them don't end up working out and I think it's largely because it's usually like a you know a typical pretty straightforward like royalty structure where it's typically you know the brand who's licensing the other you know brands IP is basically paying somewhere between like a 10 to 15% royalty and in that market at least it's so price sensitive often times the the IP license or isn't actually contributing bring much to the table that's actually gonna help offset the price difference I think a lot of them don't work out because that brand who's licensing the IP has to pay that 10 to 15% royalty back to the IP licensor but they haven't really found an ability to actually increase the price at all compared to what they're selling other products for and it's ultimately the cost of the product is and so the just the numbers often just don't work out I'm not so I'm kind of curious in this world where it seems like it's worked and you guys have a lot of success like what is the yeah what does a typical deal structure look like you know it's nothing set in stone I'll say we are without divulging all the different deals you know it's gotta be below 10% you know we've talked to brands that hey I think this can work but you know the amount they want which you know I I don't begrudge them that right this is your brand you know we're gonna throw this on a bag a pickle bag and you know you you want that so typically it'll you know would need to be kind of south of that that that 10% range we will like the product to be profitable right you know if we're gonna put it on a shelf space and and we're gonna go to that distribution and the fees involved with that it needs to make a decent margin from a holistic perspective that you know for PNL responsibility looking at the brand I'm okay with that lower margin if it's part of my father in law who's not with us and it's a different business but he said if you're selling widgets you can always sell a widget for lower margin as part of your product array if it helps you sell other widgets right so a warheads pickle tapatio pickle that helps us sell dill pickles right that helps brokers manufacturers reps be more interested in representing us that helps category managers want to stop by our booth and yeah when and H E B in Texas was a great one they put our products in because I sent them I mean it is a it was a horrible looking package it wasn't what we ended up I said this is what we're thinking of they put in our big papa Hot Mama squeezer Dylan hot and we've been there for something like 7 8 years now and they're a great partner a great customer they never actually added the licensed item but it open the door it open the I got the conversation going right I get that for sure yeah yeah and same with uh five below five below has become a great partner of ours uh uh because again they really see that pop culture and innovation they they've been feeding us new product ideas that we've been working on taking to market wow and it started with warheads because they saw warheads they they brought in you know we now have depending on the planogram up to five skews and they literally followed up on a press release and got to me from like a LinkedIn or a PR post or something like that and now have turned into a very significant customer for us yeah in in part of the agreements is it um let's just say you don't have to speak to warhead specifically but using that one as an example is part of that licensing agreement is there a language in there that typically asks that brand like the warheads was an example to make commitments in terms of stuff they're gonna do to help drive sales whether it's I don't know social content or helping with demos along those lines and it's it's different with each partner sure Warner Brothers and Pickle Rick is a lot more detailed and structured than impact confections with warhead you know most of the agreement is really on how to use the product make sure that we follow the style guide and terms I mean typically we sign three year terms and often extend them if the product does well but you have to put a minimum guarantee you know this is the royalties we'll pay and if for some reason the product bombs you have an annual minimum guarantee and you might have to pay that even if your royalties aren't reaching it um yeah we have yet to have that happen with any of our products yet you know whatever level of success so the agreements are really about that the partnership is more of just kind of building rapport understanding okay how can we work together to take our products to market where can we do social collaboration you know where can we do that and you know it's different I have a meeting coming up with Mars Kellogg's Nova to talk about Pringles to say like hey this is the social collabs are great but how could we go to um you know a retailer and say we've got two great brands how can all three of them work together yeah totally that makes a lot of sense you mentioned that the Chamoy partnership a bit you know v one didn't work out as I expected you tried again and and saw success can you just curious about what that journey was like in terms of it didn't work but you guys were committed hey we think this could work we're gonna keep trying until it works and eventually it did yeah I mean it's it's it's just it's there is that expectation of explaining to someone who's not a pickle in a pouch consumer like why this works so there that that's that's one step and but the other is just kind of is just getting the ingredients right I mean you know warheads was the best and and yeah we still I want to say hate but we get a lot of negative comments to say this isn't insanely sour you know it's it's a the first versions we tested were insanely sour and we said to ourselves and we said to the team at Impact Confections so like hey this is great but we're not going for the one chip challenge like I'm gonna buy this once and force myself to eat it in YouTube in front of people we're going for turns right right and so if someone goes on YouTube and says this isn't sour enough for me that's okay right you know but it was kind of that fine line of you know we quickly decided okay we can't go extreme as as warheads can be and dialing it back and there was a ton of back and forth in that and just kind of tasting of what their expectations were and what our realization of you know what we we can and can't sell you know would I do a license that's a one time production run a one time push out there possibly if there was some sort of ROI on that but what I'm more looking for with those three year terms is the first year you're just getting awareness the second you know how planogram cycles work I mean I just got an email for a planogram cycle for late 2026 that's that's due next week wow you know so if my innovation's not ready it's you know if I don't have a UPC and an imagery to submit and things like that you know then I'm waiting till 2027 so right you know I want those three year terms you know cause it's really the third year when you're when you're really securely getting that plan and grand space yeah totally just to kind of talk this this licensing stuff together let's just say for other Mark CPG marketing sales leaders that are thinking about they should keep top of mind or recommendations you might have for them as as they're getting going in this organization as a big focus on this licensing stuff yeah I mean yeah I mean number one is you have to to know your brand right and you have to know your customers and what they're looking for and um you know like I said needs to be fun to match pickles to match pickle in a pouch and frankly the other thing is you have to have a lot going because it's not all gonna pan out you know I mean we had one that got to the 1 yard line and got so we didn't get it across the goal line it had nothing to do with the people working on the project it had something to do with the you know it got to the C suite and it got killed at a big company you know so if you only have that and it's the same as you know I'm a salesperson at heart I love the marketing you know I love the brand building I'm passionate about Fan Holdings but you know I'm a salesperson at heart and you know you have to be working 20 different deals and now and if 20 of them all work out then you've got a great problem to solve right but that's probably not gonna happen yep we talked about a bit about the tapatio flavor the chamoy flavor warheads those are all pretty different pretty sure Van Holten's is sold at this point all over the world like Canada UK EU Australia etcetera I'm curious have you found like have pretty distinct flavor preferences and and buying patterns and if so like how are how Taylor do you get in terms with your approach to each market like does the warheads one only work in the US or is that work in other markets come we we kind of stumbled into this due to TikTok yeah we I really noticed it I wanna say 2022 going into 2023 yeah these orders are popping out I know I figured out they were Australia in Perth Australia grocery stores were getting it and again we weren't even involved they're essentially you know not diversion but it's they're getting it from wholesalers and bringing it in right and you know calling it the TikTok pickle and putting it out so you know we had an incredible assist from that so you know what I've been doing is just kind of leaning into that assist I got uh and that's really where warheads came from it was like okay that this this this fits in you know flavor profiles are totally different now I I was at a trade show in Germany in 2023 and I mean you you have to explain the whole product not just the company and all that so it's really that Gen Z that that does it that gets it for us and and we are selling in Europe now and we do find the licensing is very strong for us there so the best example would actually be not flavor but our licensing with Warner Brothers and Rick and Morty for our Pickle Rick Pickle that's I think it's maybe changed now but originally as we rolled out in Europe that was our No. 1 seller oh wow so so people crave that American pop culture so you know we've leaned into that and then you know this is a whole other uh topic of conversation but the other thing we did is we're in this whole food dye transition right now we took our food dyes out so that we could be in Europe in a more formal way yeah so you know that that's been a whole learning process as well I was gonna ask I was gonna ask about that actually each country and some companies how products can be made and what not customize formulations for like a multiple markets as you're selling in these other markets we're using the same lines and this one's you have to totally clean it out and then do the line for this run for this next country how how does that we we have and Steve Burns our owner and you know we're we're a small privately held company right so we're not like private equity looking to spin off we're not looking to make quarterly numbers I mean we're looking for long term sustained growth and profitability yeah I'm part of that part of that PNL responsibility so you know we have added capacity to the factory to be able to do that we've had to make different lines we have we're becoming more nimble and flexible and learning how to switch lines to be able to move among production and again that's not my role but you know heavily engaged in those conversations and there is the uh as our production director says at the Eric Girard International Brine Wing that we had to add you know for for this so that we could supply Europe in a way that was efficient to us and um you know and and that's all great because I'm not gonna state here exactly when we'll do it you know we'll take those food dyes out of our formulations here in the US uh so it's an amazing blessing that we figured out how to do that for Europe first yeah totally a lot of companies that have done nothing to figure out how to produce without food dyes so you know thank thank you to TikTok and pushing us into Europe we got an amazing head start that's great that's awesome shifting gears a bit from a visual identity packaging design standpoint I'm pretty sure I've heard you say something along the lines of as you're as you think about packaging design the package has to win the thumbnail first 90% of discovery starts in a 9 by 6 9 by 16 screen which I totally get where you're coming from there but I'm curious can you just kind of speak to this approach a bit and how you think about this when you guys are looking at a packaging design yeah I mean we've really lean heavily into bright colors and again I I I just go back to fun and go back to pop culture right you know you could put little garlic cloves or dill or things like that on your product to do that that that's that's not where we go I mean we we know that um you know our product lends itself to fun and flavor exploration so you see people putting fruit roll UPS around it people coring out the pickle and putting Takis and gushers so that that visual piece that wanting to see that you know going with a bright blue for our dill and bright red really helps us just pop out win attention right away on that screen and yeah it it helps us we also leaned heavily into pickle in a pouch and we've put that at the top of our packaging now and really focused on that as our yeah there's some trademarking issues with the descriptive we can't really trademark that but we wanna be the the pickle in a pouch pickle in a bag we wanna be fun pretty sure you guys rolled out a packaging redesign last year I think it was just maybe it's gonna start like like meaning what LED to that decision to go through that packaging redesign process in in the first place well I think you know we go back to we really hadn't done much throughout the history of Van Holten's every you know maybe 10 years or something some tweaks and you know we did a more significant tweak in 2021 and you know I I firmly believe that was LED to our success because again all of a sudden the selfies of people holding a tapatio pickle leaped with us so you know when you look at Budweiser you look at these big brands they refresh their packaging regularly to to call out on the shelf so uh you know we we leaned into that from the pop culture thing that was happening to us you know and you know just from the the shelf space and really identifying us with pickle in a pouch and and you know we're it makes a difference we're getting great comments from buyers great comments from category managers just the local grocery store I shop we were always kind of down in the corner at Hyvee and all of a sudden I noticed with our new packaging the manager put us in a much better situation right and you know it's the same product it's still pickles but I really think that that packaging helped like the gas station pickle um I know that's a big channel for you guys compared to you said like you know five below is a big customer for you guys as well and HEB curious like what's what's have you found is is really unique about this C store channel and what have you found over the years is really key to winning and maybe especially what's key to winning that maybe is a different than yeah your traditional retail let's say yeah I mean key key to winning is all about velocity yeah I'm a category manager can like or dislike certain things but shelf space is column inches and how much can you sell in that shelf space so we have to show the velocity and that's why showing or updating packaging showing that that piece and we have to show incrementality too it can be a challenge'cause we're going up against huge brands that you know are coming in with shelf space studies and things like that we have to show we're getting them incremental business and you know the best example is you know I won't name the retailer just to not share that but I was talking to a retailer the other day she put us in next to our competitor you know I've been begging for that space begging for that space you know cause we lost it to them and I said you can sell both and she said I haven't seen cannibalization of our current item you know you're bringing something different and and the challenge to kind of you know look back to all this pop culture stuff I have I mean you know we're still selling pickles to Bubba you know convenience stores category managers and or store managers problems and make it easy for them getting the most out of your budget when you think about resourcing what how do you yeah how do you think about in terms like what variables or frameworks do you think about in the context of do you build out your plan with regards to internal versus external resources like are there certain functions you feel like you know whether it's I don't know influencer management or creative agencies packaging design etc did you always feel like yeah we need to have this in house versus contract out or is it pretty situational I mean so much situation I mean we we just brought on a marketing director we've had kind of different fresh out of college marketing coordinators marketing roles over the time that I've been with the company you know great people that have come in and out of the company but you know bringing in someone that has done packaging relances before that that's been critical but you know we don't really spend a lot of money in marketing budgets to me most of what we spend is on that b to B time frame b to B uh and getting in front of category managers and getting that you know I mean some of the advertising you know it's you know what comes first the cart or the horse but you know from my standpoint and being in the trenches is it's all about gaining and maintaining that retail distribution to build your brand and you know from that b to B trade shows are massively important being at sweets and snacks being at max being at iddba that is critical for our business totally on that on that track I know you guys have had a lot of success at trade shows over the years is key to let's just say maximizing ROI at a trade show in terms of what generates the most success gets most attention you know well you have people from all over the world that tend to just move from Chicago to a mix of Indian Vegas that's my favorite show of the year I usually lose my voice every year cause I talk so much but it's a kind of looping back to the licensing and the new item and that stuff having something in the new item case every year draws traffic to our booth and again they may not buy that product but it shows that you know hey this is an innovative company that I need to look at that I need to come over and then we need to scan their badge with the app and it's what's really critical and yeah I won't divulge my age but I've been doing this for a while and I I come from more of the handshaker to get get out the car and go see people I've I've flown across the country to hear the word no haha you know so now I you know you just now you just get unreturned emails and that's your no so that is often your only chance to build some conversation and rapport now if that category manager if she comes by your booth and has a positive interaction with myself or Ian or Steve you're more likely gonna get that email returned right and you know here's a reason I need to talk to these people so it's your it's your shot at Facetime sure other than having a new product in the shelf which totally makes sense any other kind of like tactics that thinking back that you found has really worked whether it's I don't know having a big loud color from mascot in the front of the booth trying to draw people in or it's the old is schools the first question and one of the first questions I ask in any job interview is what's the most important part of sales is follow up right I mean every person that comes by your booth is gonna get an email or a text or a phone call or something like that so it's the preparing doing whatever marketing we can ahead of time to say I'm LinkedIn we're gonna be there to whatever platform next may offer to you know on their site you know now it's all apps I'm gonna pre plan my show so you know that 500 dollar package that makes sure you have a picture of your item on the app on your booth that's worth it do that haha you know don't don't be stingy you know I still see small brands and I get it and I'm friends with a lot of people that will come to me and say hey I know you're a small company let's talk I still see them with notepads writing Adam's name down I'm like no buy the lead app so you can scan their badge and then you can get that so we don't do we don't get to gimmick we don't do a pickle outfit um you know we really just try to make our booth welcoming use the bright colors to catch our attention you know get get the best spot possible and you know work our asses off the day of the show yep totally yes any uh you've been in the CBG space for quite a while at this point sounds like you're tracking trends and what not and TikTok and Instagram any specific brands just in the broader CPG space or just general trends that you're particularly excited about or been been tracking at all well I mean you know that it kind of what started our conversations is the partnerships I mean I think the younger consumers expecting it I think it's challenging production people it's challenging you know cause it it mean the easiest thing would be to make one flavor of pickle and never change the pack size or never change anything I mean our efficiency is at the factory would go through the roof right but volume would go away down uh so I I think that you're gonna continue to see a challenge with the right amount of innovation for your brand is it gonna be easier for a you know a Mars or a uh you know a m and D's or someone to pull that off heck yeah but you know for for smaller or scaling brands it's it's finding that that that innovation that fit that is true to your story of of who you are and getting that and and then I think I mean the other I have I have you know young teenagers and young 20 something and it's snacking I mean the snacking is over meals you know is so incredible and just that that variety in snacking so I think you know we're playing around with a new concept I can't talk about yet but a line extension that would wouldn't be a different product but it's it's snacking it's snacking it's protein it's people using food for functionality so yeah alright I'll keep my eye out for that one I'm I'm very curious who that would be Awesome America this has been great appreciate the time I think a lot of really good insights here especially on the licensing front and yeah really really helpful what's the best place for people to follow along with with you specifically and then what's the best place for people to follow along with the brand as well all our socials are at pickle in a pouch so be that Instagram Facebook TikTok yeah I mean to find our products big big shout out to five below anything you see something new we have a we're looking to launch another licensed item in early 2026 and they should have they should have it first I mean they have Pringles first they have Blue Raspberry first so that's that's the way to see our innovation but you know this this brand was built on the the corner store the independence and and we still work on that too perfect awesome that's great awesome I appreciate the time I think that's the pod okay really appreciate it Adam thank you 15+ years or so I'm curious just from your take the biggest changes you've seen where do you see this physical category yet and we're still in the middle of the whole TikTok as you started to hone in this process and it yeah I mean honestly it's it's a gut feel I mean what are maybe just a few things that you tell them consumers in each of those markets I mean and honestly cause I know you know I'm curious how does that work from a where I just want to start with is just why constantly be coming up with ways to solve I I tell you what if sweets and snacks is a great trade show uh strategy anything that you found that's has had the most impact last question for you Eric are you running you know uh