Shani Seidman - The Most Game-Changing Rebrand of 2024

On this episode, we’re joined by Shani Seidman, CMO at Kayco, the family-owned brand house behind Manischewitz, Kedem, Gefen, Heaven & Earth, Tuscanini and more. 

Shani takes us inside the Manischewitz rebrand: why it couldn’t be “just a facelift,” how her team translated 130 years of equity into a modern, welcoming voice, and the very real mechanics of changing over hundreds of SKUs across thousands of doors. 

We dig into the frozen-and-deli push that’s helping Manischewitz become an everyday brand (not just a holiday brand), the packaging system choices, and the operational forecasting required to retire old packaging, sync printers, and hit a clean Passover reset. 

Shani also shares why “identity decisions” should be debated widely but art direction should be singular,  what to measure (and what to ignore) in the first 6–18 months (and beyond) post-rebrand.

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Episode Highlights:

💡 The real “why” behind the Manischewitz rebrand
🆕 New SKUs 
🗓️ Going from holidays to everyday
🧰 The tactical process of a rebrand
🏷️ Packaging changeover at scale
⚖️ Key decision points in a rebrand
🧑‍⚖️ Decision by committee: when it does / doesn’t make sense
🧪 Misleading data 
✅ Rebrand recommendations

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Table of Contents:

00:25:22 – Kayco overview
02:10:17 – Manischewitz rebrand – the “why”, it wasn’t just a “face lift”
04:50:14 – Manischewitz rebrand – new SKUs
08:35:08 – Manischewitz rebrand – becoming an everyday brand 
11:57:00 – Manischewitz rebrand – what the tactical process looked like
20:13:28 – Manischewitz rebrand – the rollout and packaging changeover at retail
20:13:28 – Manischewitz rebrand – the response from the media, etc.
24:53:14 – Manischewitz rebrand – key decision points
30:05:29 – Decision by committee, when it makes sense and when it doesn’t
32:51:07 – Measuring the impact of a rebrand
36:10:25 – Misleading data
37:51:28 – Recommendations and things to watch out for during a rebrand

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Links:

Kayco – https://www.kayco.com
Follow Shani on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/shani-seidman-profile/
Follow Adam on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/
Check out https://www.kitprint.co/ for CPG production design support.

Transcript

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welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with who is the CEO CMO sorry of Keko which is the leading kosher brand house in the US brands like Manischewitz Gerard Gardens among others and then prior to leading marketing for for Alakeco Shawny LED marketing for the Manischewitz brand specifically as well as another leading food distributor so she definitely knows the space very well just for the people that aren't that familiar with with Keko and all the brands under the portfolio what not maybe just give us super high level just in terms of kind of origin story how Keko came to be and then we'll go from there yeah absolutely thanks Adam first of all thank you for having me on shelf help yeah so um basically go is the leading kosher distributor um in the United States and it's a family owned company you know I think that like many companies starting wanting to create wanted to serve the community um providing kosher food starting with brands like km which has been around since the 1930s and just expanding since then as you know following the trajectory of Jewish culture religious like kosher Jewish culture that has grown and the availability of kosher products have grown so you know the brand this you know the company has expanded and adding more brands to the portfolio and Manischewitz being one of those brands I actually came from the world of Manischewitz I was acquired with the family of brands that Manischewitz the Manischewitz company owned and I came over to Keko in 19 I transitioned the business and then you know I started running marketing for all of their kosher brands and here I am in that role six years later living you know living the dream living the dream I love it in 2024 you guys launched a pretty massive rebrand of of Manischewitz so definitely love to start there that pretty massive rebrand in the first place that was so I was I came from the cup from the brand so I was working with the brand when it was before before the rebrand and when I sat in this office I remember speaking to the CEO and we're discussing the brand what like what do you see how do you see the brand and I said this brand needs a real shake up um not just the facelift that like that's cosmetic it doesn't it's more than that we need like some soul searching we need we need to go to a real agency do real research get to where their brand identity makes sense because it is a legacy brand it means so much to so many people which is why I feel very passionate about the brand being a Jewish person I grew up with Jewish culture and traditions I think that it deserves it like this brand doesn't deserve to just die um a very slow it will be very slow because it is a has very big brand awareness it needs it I think the audience is looking for it and it started from my interview here and we took it from there we have the leadership here is like absolutely which is very important to get to have a leadership that believes in that too and that's really the why why is that the brand deserves it and its audience deserves it and it represents what it represents means so much to so many people yeah that's that makes a lot of sense I just I I was just thinking like the awareness the brand awareness I mean me like when you stop 8 a a um 10 people on the street and say do you know what the the brand of Shabbat is like 8 out of 10 seven out of 10 depends where you are in New York it's nine out of 10 and maybe in Minnesota 6 out of ten they know what it is the brand has awareness it is and it because of what it represents it has awareness it's also in categories that were are declining and you're we're fighting a category decline but with such big brand awareness so we were balancing opportunity and potential with reality and it it was like that's where the difference was and we wanted to bring the reality up to the awareness so that was like a big goal of ours part of the rebrand I think you guys also launched a a series of of new skews as well assuming that my research is is correct like what were those new skews that you launched as part of the rebrand and just curious what the thought process was behind each of those new products yeah um great like it's a great insight that it came along with a bunch of new skews again it's not just a facelift it was OK where are we now and where do we wanna go so right now we're offering very traditional products around the holiday time so we're like kind of a holiday brand and we're in like obviously we're in the kosher set where do we wanna go what do we wanna provide so we are we are like kind of a representation of Jewish culture through food that's what we like the identity of the brand right so okay so that makes sense that we have these portfolio of the matzah and the gefilte fish and macaroons again fighting a declining category just because of trends and how people are celebrating holidays and who's celebrating so we wanted to trans we wanted our new products to we knew that we weren't gonna grow with existing we're not gonna get more people to buy the salted fish or matzah we're gonna get people to buy delicious kosher cuisine and who else to sell it who else has the authority to sell it matzah chef has the authority to sell it so we're gonna come out with products that represent Jewish food culture in the best way and we're also gonna do it in a format that's convenient so I think back when we invented when the invention of like self service of the fish was came out the 1940s you know when like when food in general is scaled and industrialized and that was an innovation then right used to be you had to prepare it for a day and get to go to the fishmonger and get a fish now we did it for you so that was an innovation and a format not seen before so we wanted to replicate that so something like a frozen rugelah that you par bake you you buy frozen and you bake off for 10 minutes in your oven and you get like all of a sudden your home smells like a Jewish bakery that is a new format for the 2025 that we want to offer our consumers the same way we offered innovation 100 years ago we're offering innovation in Jewish food now we have a Bake Off pop the same thing we actually have a Strussel topping that you put on right before sinful it's so delicious frozen knishes we came out with the frozen section really expanded because that is the format that people shop people want the convenience of having it ready in your freezer no one's gonna make a babka if you're maybe if you're in New York you can get a babka at a bakery but not everywhere in America can you get a babka at a bakery we also have frozen challah and l'kas um or durves again all in the frozen section cause this is where OK it gets us out of the kosher aisle right we're not in the shelf stable kosher aisle we're somewhere else in the store so it gets our facing somewhere else in the store and also it gets us out of the mentality of shelf stable only fresh cause frozen once you bake it feels fresh so we also came out with hot dogs which is a New York style like a very Jewish deli style food refrigerator section obviously not frozen but still we're getting into deli style foods because that's what every time you we just want to be you think of Jewish food we're gonna provide it for you so that's where that's where the identity of these Jewish these skews came from is it an iconic Jewish food or a deli is it a great new format for consumers if that answer those questions we're gonna we're gonna provide it yeah that's those dots totally connect was um so you can tell me if I'm just way off base but I I imagine there's there was historically maybe a a portion of the customer base of Manischewitz that maybe only really bought Manischewitz products around Jewish related holidays like they only think about I don't really think about it in their normal day to day grocery shopping but they always think about it when they're buying stuff for Passover or what not and was was maybe part of the rebrand to maybe shift to help try to shift like more of that part of the consumer base to shift their mindset where I'm they're not just thinking about it on those specific holidays but it's something that every week they're going to the grocery store they're thinking about Manischewitz and something they want to always be making on a more regular basis yeah you got it like you hit the nail on the head for we're like Passover is our Super Bowl I there you guys there's 50 other weeks a year we could sell products as opposed to just Passover like obviously we're we're going to be spike our sales and consumer behavior will still have spikes like any other brand but where we want to be an everyday brand Shabbat happens once a week you the holla that you want to bring to Shabbat happens once a week and we read the identity of the brand was for the culturally curious consumer not just Jewish so um someone who's culturally curious and wants matzo ball soup will go to Manischewitz and have it similarly like I have with my family my kids love Taco Tuesday I don't have cultural ties to tacos and um as a very Ashkenazi Jewish family but my kids love Taco Tuesday and we are culturally curious and we go and buy we buy the ingredients and we have it so why not matzo Ball Monday why not having why not having a family have a month about Monday or you know on for a family who who who wants to celebrate Shabbat once a week so that the idea of making an everyday product um everyday brand is your spot on just like there's like this um resurgence of Jewish deli and bakery um happening especially in the tri state area where people are are you know Katz's Deli and things like that that are just like iconic um we want to tap into that not just because it's we're opportunistic but because we have the right to own it um because we've been serving our families have been serving it for years and we've actually have a matzo ball soup and we actually have you know all these things that are just like we have a reason for being here it happens like you said every day every week um when people um funny around like Thanksgiving time when people complain not complain but they talk about this big Thanksgiving dinners like I'm preparing it's so many dishes it's so much family over like there's so many courses and we always joke like in my like that's Shabbat every week literally we Thanksgiving dinner is Shabbat every week and we're just so used to it that like the Thanksgiving dinner is like nothing for us we actually have leftovers the next day on Shabbat so like it's part of our culture like cooking the family the big meals like it's not just done on holiday time um and we invite anyone who wants to eat at our table Jewish or not Jewish to try our foods and eat with us you know dine with us so once that decision was made internally everyone aligned okay yes we need to do this rebrand what from there what did the the process look like and kind of the the key steps involved as an example is like OK yes we're deciding we're gonna do this let's go now find the right agency you wanna gauge and then you do some sort of discovery insights process then at some point you actually start you know shifting the visual identity then you apply that to packaging then you have to go to production yeah what are some of those kind of key steps involved in terms of actually going through the rebrand from beginning to end yeah I mean like like you said you definitely understand that process benefit of of not being the very corporate I mean we have we are very scaled obviously our portfolio is very big but our soul is not corporate it's family owned and it's entrepreneurship so with the goal the the beauty of that is that we're very lean in our decision making it's wonderful it's like me the CEO and a couple we have some art directors that we just we know we want to get their input and stuff like that but like we were able to make decisions together um that felt right for the brand I think that it was easier the process I'll get into it in a minute but I think just in general like the way we made decisions I felt like it was we put our egos it had nothing to do with our egos it had to do in service of this brand I think everyone knew that it's something bigger than us and it wasn't like we're trying to build something that's that's like an extension of one person individually it was like a representation of something much bigger than us so when are we were making decisions like it was in that service and it felt like that you know it felt like let's say there was discrepancies like when we were for Jewish company and we're very talmudic in the way that we um have meetings sometimes um you know for three people four opinions so like that happens a lot but the discussions around it were like I said always in service of like the ultimate goal when you operate like that you come out with the outcome that we did that we always wanted to make sure the soul was there and we were in the right direction and the process like you said is you know we decided um we were talking with JKR for a long time they had pitched us something a different some other business and we felt like this was the right agency for this brand they've done other JK R Jones knows Richie's the global agency they've done other legacy brands like um Dunkin Donuts and Bush and they did Impossible Meat recently they understand um what's at stake when you do take a legacy brand and a brand that actually has a lot of nostalgia um and we felt like they were a good fit they actually we felt like they also took to heart the meaning of the rebrand and how powerful it could be and how meaningful it could be the way they assembled their team was very intentional you know when we were kind of discussing our key audience they wanted to make sure they had representation of that audience in the group like the designers who grew up Jewish in tradition grew up who weren't Jewish who knew Manischewitz someone who didn't even know what that someone from Kansas that didn't know yeah maybe I heard of it like me you know the wine maybe so we have this amalgamation of people that represented what the awareness of the brand at all levels were and what the attachment to the brand was so that was very intentional on their part um they brought in Lisa Smith who is um she just like a she amazing she brought the soul into the rebrand and there was a point where we were like I didn't feel the soul was in there and you know we pushed like because it doesn't go with the outcome is always there's like successful outcome there's there's challenges along the way there's never there's no such thing as something that's like not challenge if it has if that's something good there's there's gonna be obstacles and there was a point where like I felt things were like flat like we're missing the soul and they brought Lisa in and then from that moment it turned around but before we even did visual identity like you said we did unpacking we unpacked the brand we did a lot of research on what the awareness is what what the what the p what the general perception of the brand is where we wanted to go what the identity what our tone of voice is who we're representing what our consumer is we started with Jessica from Kansas and then we reeled it in realizing it's more Jessica from Long Island like someone more Jewish adjacent not necessarily Jewish like just no like had never met a Jewish person like we just wanted to we we we refined we defined and then we refined and then we defined again and that is all we built into their process like the process is keep refining until your brand has a very clear identity and audience and message and then we walked in we went we went to the visuals we had such I don't know if I'm stealing questions from you from your outline but we had such a I'm like flying through I'm flying through it's fine so we had such a history of visual inspiration from the brand itself like we did not have to go outside the brand itself for inspiration um I always felt the bread was doing cool things all along I don't have it with me cause I'm not at my desk but at my desk I have like all these old things from the 30s 40s 50s from the bread I have this old cookbook I always pull out during meetings and there's marketing tactics they had meal planning in the 40s I I'm just saying like we're paying homage to a great brand who had great marketing minds all along like partnering with Sammy Davis Jr for the wine like iconic so it was just more of like making sure like we we were letting the legacy shine while also looking modern to the future so when we were looking at the visual identity we we saw orange obviously is a very equitable color it's been a logo for decades it is a little it's warm it's nostalgic it has like a very 70s and 80s a tone to it like a CP like you know starch and and also represents a a joke if you take all our food and you do like if you take a palette color palette from it you'll just get the color palette of the brand the Browns and oranges so it it the representation of that was all there so like it was an orange and the the way you know we got a typographer uh typography artist to work on the logo to add a little um again a nod to like the Hebrew typeface on the top of the a not like too distracting but like tip of the hat so like all along the way it was just looking back like being proud of that legacy but also saying we have something relevant to offer going forward and then the the hard part that I mean the whole process of of stalking and refining and defining and the visual identity took like a year and then um and that was fun and fun and a little scary and fun a little scary but like ultimately like a good ride and then like then the execution hits and you're like oh my gosh we have hundreds of products several different manufacturers printers thousands of points of distribution our products are some people some stores have inventory of old products they're still have two rebrands ago on their shelf and you're like what are you doing the rollout was for that was crazy because I so I had a plot forecasting with our purchasing and procurement and our teams and then I had to look at sales data on like how OK the egg noodles we but we purchase millions of film at a time and it takes six months for this to replenish and four months to this to replenish I mean if you ever see those memes of like like people with like a like a conspiracy theories like the threads behind them like the red you know the strings and like trying to figure out I knew I knew this cause I I do head up the the you know I head up marketing and part of it is labeling creative printing all that so I I understand that I actually was like kind of ringing the bell early and it's like oh we're just gonna roll it out it's gonna appear on shelves and I'm like no ding ding ding no no so the cascade I'm like this is cascading and we have no control so as we need to understand that um at the same time I realized that we have something that not a lot of other brands have is that we have a fresh start every Passover okay so not so fresh sometimes people are sorts of old inventory that's they they put up okay fine but for the most part Passover sets clean slate and I'm like this is a gift first of all it's a gift because every media outlet loves loves their token Passover story and they always ask Manischewitz for one so we'll get we'll have one for them and it's a gift because that's it we get to start new and but at the same time that means we had to like literally change over 200 skis overnight in thousands of locations right so I in thousands of locations everywhere so in order to maximize like maximize that I so cause JKR gave us like 6 master mechanics and that was great and then we had to blow them out to and and thousand of the iterations so I have a designer here he's amazing his name is Boris shout out Boris together honestly like I feel like we just shut ourselves in a room and just did it I stopped listening to anyone's feedback um at one point because I love you know putting things up on the wall and seeing how it looks and then we didn't have that luxury I wish I did because um our focus group was actually our first pass over I did not do a focus group I understood that I was gonna we were gonna miss out on this if we did that we're gonna miss out on a whole year even the CEO's feedback I just wait I I was like I was like you know what you're gonna give me feedback once on the shelf and that's very scary for me because you may you know like you may not like all the decisions being made but it's the only way to get it all on the shelf and we did it and Passover 2024 happened we made the announcement the shelves were a like a spectrum of orange and brown and it was all there it was like our billboards and we we rented some billboard space in the New York area New York City tri state area New Jersey Turnpike and the feedback was better I couldn't I literally could not have imagined a better um outcome like in terms of the way media responded to it um I think it was like a perfect storm of again media a lot of pride cropping up around this time with everything happening and people were just really excited for like a Jewish story that wasn't like heavy you know like food tradition you know brand 130 year old brand re you know rebranding American brand like the story like sold itself I really I really believe that and my team was amazing that kind of was the process of like from when we started and to when it hit shelves again I'm leaving out like a ton of crazy stuff that happened along the way but total learning experience for everyone involved but I think we did okay some mistakes but mostly successes were there any decision points going through the rebrand process whether it was like new messaging or the new look of the packaging were decision points that were really contentious internally and that required a lot of debate at all yeah yeah for sure I think like at the execution part is where I was like yeah it's you know don't get in our way if you want it done for the strategic identity part like I said we can get really our discussions get very lively I mentioned before they're all in service of the end goal which is the brand but there were definitely points like I said we pivoted from our core audience that was a big discussion um we like that was a big pivot like we reeled it in we think that eventually everyone like it'll be successful in Kansas but we like we like that was a big decision to make our our hero products what are hair products those are really those are round table like like should it be the matzah ball soup should it be like is that is that the one that's crossing over outside the kosher you know those kind of discussions identity also are we we had this big discussion and we came are we a kosher brand are we a Jewish brand that at its core is a very big discussion yeah I imagine and we so first of all yes for both a very Jewish answer is try to argue either or is yes yeah like yeah OK but so we're both we're always kosher but that's not our identity um our identity is Jewish and that took some back and forth so you know these kind of decisions at the the core of the brand and it's also because we had a room full of it's like a microcosm of the audience so we had a room full of perspectives that were very different and it was really important to to hear all of them and again this I think was unique to the management at Spreeburn but I actually don't think it's unique in any branding exercise having a microcosm of perspective in a room is very important you're leading everyone leads with their own biases I grew up with my association with this brand is this or my association with this industry or product line is this you really need to gather take into consideration different perspectives when you do when you form a brand identity and even if the answer is we appreciate this perspective but that's not what this brand is that is very important decision to make early on because if you don't make those decisions early on as a brand you will come across later making those decisions and not having the right people in the room or not having the brand the strong brand identity to make these decisions of like who are we and who are we not and there should definitely be discussions around it like so like just like here so everywhere in life right decisions around identity have to be intentional and when we set who how does brand show up what's the tone of voice if you don't do it early then you will mess up when you get to social media or if you're working with an influencer and you are not they are amplifying your voice but they say if you are not sure of your voice then they can't amplify your voice for you so those decisions have to have been early they should have discussions around them they should not be LED by one person with one perspective so contentious no but spirited um and passionate yes and by the way one of our brand identity but personalities is spirited pet is a spirited personality like a spirited passion someone that OK a brand is also I have this um I have this way of comparing brands to people it's I don't know if it's good or bad but like a person is not one note so like the brand doesn't have to be one note we could show up in different spaces in different ways like we can be in social and be more playful and we could be more serious and different like just like a person has different facets or even like a family like maybe like the weird uncle and like the grandmother and like brands have that and they're multifaceted but they again it has to fit this this narrative that is cohesive I've often heard about like writers rooms and when they write about like characters let's say on a TV show a lot of times they have the question is like would this character say that would this character do that like sometimes you're watching something and you're like this is not this is so weird this character is like this is so out of whack so the brand is the same way would this brand show up here would this brand and you know it's all always in service of the audience so you have to know your audience also um so these discussions were always around like who's the audience who's the brand and like once you really get a real strong sense of that it is so much easier it's also makes it it just makes it so much easier for the the world at large or like to identify you having having those spirited discussions internally I think is is super important to your point on the other side it seems like more just really specifically in the kind of branding visual identity design side of things it seems like sometimes you know decision by committees is often considered a less than ideal approach also in a lot of ways cause it can kind of so I think that identity discussions should be diverse the discussions around identity should be diverse but once decided you need someone with vision that sticks with it so like I said when we when we like kind of locked ourselves in a room obviously we just like worked really hard up here in the on our in the marketing floor it was more that you need the vision to be very consistent and if you keep getting feedback and which is why I also blocked out feedback this this this should look like this you know what maybe we should add this no we're not adding we're not changing not because I'm rigid or I'm not holding it too precious you have to learn when you have to be flexible especially with different a design pack sizes and things like that you like you just need that flexibility you can't always be in this one box so to speak like we designed this on a box and now this is a fine so there is that good designers understand that they get it but the vision has to be singular and I find that yes um art direction in general like if I have a project there's one art director on the team and if it's not me it's managed by somebody it was me but if it's not me unless someone asks me especially the art director I will definitely give feedback but I know if there's a dark director that's involved with something my perspective on that will muddy and it's very hard for creative people to like bring that in but it's even harder when you're the when you're like steering the ship to make sure you have that vision and stick with it because absolutely some things are a little subjective also I have feedback oh I didn't like the R I didn't like the orange some people when someone told me I think you should use less orange I'm like okay I'm not gonna know like we did sometimes cause it was like intense we did like walk away but we did it strategically not because someone in passing gave us that feedback oh you know what you should do so like those kind of comments the committee is for discussion and for to get the vision right and after that the vision has to you have to be very clear on it yeah when you're getting ready to actually roll out this this rebrand what what were some of the the key metrics that you were focused on that you were gonna use to kind of gauge the success and impact of the rebrand that is difficult because it was an in general this specific brand is an uphill battle because of the trend like it's we matha not just for Mandy Shabbat or you know for gefilte fish not just for Mandy Shabbat as a trend you know that can be declining so you're you're up against a wave of declining categories but all along our strategy was to redesign that but not that that's not our focus our focus is on new and our hero products and how we're gonna cross over and we always knew it wasn't I'm not looking at the numbers of our existing portfolio to see if we made a difference I'm actually making sure that we are at least we have some like some growth you know but at least like there is no decline to me that's an increase because you're fighting against something that's already declining and you know what trends could change I think we're seeing a resurgence of people having more satyrs so you I think I think there is a world in where Massa Massa sales rise I do I really believe that I believe the format can like there's so many ways to do it I see a trend that's happening um but immediately our focus one is on new our hero products what our new consumer is gonna buy not existing our existing consumer will buy what our new consumer will buy and that's our touch point and our metrics and we're seeing successes and in our in the products that we're releasing like our hot dogs we're seeing you know our distribution our points of distribution we're seeing retailers take it we're seeing getting a new um new new aisles at the supermarket those are our wins we're gonna celebrate them and we know it's a long game I'm I feel very lucky that we all you know we're not short sighted enough to know that um the first Passover is gonna make it or break it you know or even the second I'm I appreciate that we all have it's been the brand's been around 130 years we say it's been around 130 years we can give it a couple years we have the courtesy to give it a couple years what I'm seeing now is like we have it like a seat at the cool kids table at lunch you know before the rebrand like all of these big influencers would not even like we'd reach out to them and they'd be like oh I guess like I say I'll take your money I just like don't know especially with the manager of the food truck that we launched they're reaching out to us we are sought after we are relevant there's no numbers on that right I'm not there's no number right now but the relevancy the fact that that Jewish influencers and then non Jewish influencers are reaching out to us I wanna work with this brand cause I see it as a growth brand I I see that as as a huge one are there any metrics that jump out that maybe are often focused on that are actually not that relevant and can maybe a bit of a distraction and maybe create a bit of a distorted view in terms of the impact of a rebrand or some big initiative that a brand does in general let's say yeah I mean I would I definitely say you have you need to wait the scan you have to getting sell sell data too soon is detrimental I think we are obsessed with our rebrand as marketers because we live and breathe them and we're passionate people and we're creative people and it's all we think about but the average consumer doesn't even notice or it takes them a year to notice these things take time it's interesting I was at the Fancy Food Show last year I was there this year this year I got a lot of oh you I just saw you just rebranded you know it's been 18 months but this is normal this is so much noise there's so much noise out there especially like within the digital age to get through to expect to get through and have sales change in one season or even three or four seasons I really I feel like is um really detrimental to long term growth and obviously in social media the metrics are always changing cause of the targets the algorithms always changing I don't think you want to be just viral and I don't think you need to just increase your followers I think you have to have meaningful engagement that to me beyond looking at just numbers comments shares like when people really engage is what's really more meaningful someone that's leading another brand maybe you know a bit behind you in terms of years of experience and all that they've done they're saying hey we're about to embark on a rebrand as well maybe two or three things that you'd recommend they should keep top of mind or kind of uses their North Star and or and or the other side things to watch out for I mentioned it before but brands need identity more than you think brands need like a story around it people engage and relate we're humans and we relate to stories it's like the way to have real brand awareness that is somewhere don't I am guilty of this too sometimes I jump to what it looks like to the end so also just my history in creative the creative arts like your brain just visualizes right you establish take the time to establish your brand identity and take the time to be clear about it who you are and who you're not like us on one side of it it's really important and again it's okay to have discussions around it it's okay to not be clear on Day one I think people think they need clarity they need clarity there's so much there's so much thought and indecisive indecisiveness that goes along with it it's good it's part of it it means you're gonna have a meaningful outcome if you think about it and you have these like moments of are we this are we that are we not this you need to it's almost a struggle that we doubt what you are and what you're not that's on one side of it and the second thing I did is is know your audience not just like okay my audience is someone who buys this know your audience so well you know what their daily like day to day life looks like know your audience like just study them is this your target audience why who are they what are they doing what's their buying behavior why are they buying like this you have to know your audience so well this is psychology my marketing is for as a psychology for sociopaths have you ever heard of that I have not it's I mean not really but sort of but like it's because you have to understand who you are and you have to understand your audience like without these two things you're just selling it's consumer it's just like you're asking someone to consume something so maybe you'll get a one sale but you won't get a you won't get you won't get a customer or you won't get someone who is like dedicated to your brand like a follower so like you want those meaningful return customers that that one day in 50 years will be this nostalgic for your brand and that's also I think like I wanted this brand to become a nostalgic brand like how do I do that you have to make an emotional attachment and that's how you do it so like who you are and who your audience is and then last thing is the your goal for the brand for both you and your audience like you need to pay where we are now and what our goal is like where this is where the brand is now what I want the goal is if you if those are your those are your North Stars all the time every decision you make will be is this us is this talking to the right audience and is this going to where we wanna go if you have those 2 3 things in mind you're golden or maybe not but at least you'll learn yeah those are really helpful wait with you and then these days what's the best place for people to follow along with Amanda Shepherd's brand as well um okay so we're on our you know our social platforms we're on Instagram I think that's our biggest you know we're growing our TikTok presence I think that just being growing our audience and growing TikTok presence is the same trajectory um because we're just targeting those new audience we're in both of those spaces I personally I'm on LinkedIn I share news about you know in the what we're doing in trade what the brands doing professionally about me also I think I also share things about other brands that we're working on because we take it as a portfolio of brands that I manage so I actually think that some people are Nancy LinkedIn I find if you that it's a space that could be very helpful and a nice it's a nice place to go to share industry insights that's where I am professionally right now yeah like I think you'll be seeing more go follow the food truck if you're in New York City we're all around town so that's where you can find us awesome perfect well yeah appreciate the time Shawn it's been really helpful really appreciate you sharing the inside story of the rebrand and um yeah appreciate the time that's it that's the pop today we're speaking with Shawny Sidman you know when I came here was part of the rebrand and I'm just totally making some assumptions here yeah so there's a difference between that's vision yeah that makes sense for sure from a number standpoint okay brands what's the best place to to follow along with