Kim McDermott - Egglife's Omnichannel Playbook

On this episode, we’re joined by Kim McDermott, Senior Brand Manager at Egglife Foods, the brand that’s redefining what low-carb, high-protein eating looks like by replacing flour with eggs. With amazing wraps, and the recently launched pasta line, Egglife is just getting started.

Before joining Egglife, Kim led key marketing and brand initiatives at global CPG giants like Kellogg and Molson Coors, bringing that enterprise muscle to a fast-moving insurgent brand. At Egglife, Kim leads all things e-commerce, digital retail, shopper and experiential marketing.

Kim unpacks Egglife’s 2025 rebrand, from what triggered it to how they rolled it out across shelf, screen, and shopper marketing. We also dive into the nitty-gritty of Retail Media Networks, digital rebate strategies, driving trial, and what to expect as a marketer at a fast-growing upstart brand vs a multinational CPG conglomerate.

*There's a typo in the captions right at the end. Egglife's correct URL is https://www.egglifefoods.com/*

Episode Highlights:

 🧠 Big CPG vs up-start brands
 🛒 Retail Media Network strategy by banner
 🔄 DTC vs. in-store marketing mix
 💸 Using digital rebates to drive first-time trial
 🎨 The 2025 rebrand - why they did it and how it landed
 📦 Packaging changes that actually drive velocity
 🎯 The right KPIs to judge a rebrand
 📈 How she thinks about internal bandwidth vs. agency help
 👀 Trends and brands Kim is watching closely

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Table of Contents:

 00:42:28 – Intro and Egglife origin story
 01:48:10 – Going from multinational CPG to a fast-growing upstart
 05:36:12 – The Egglife rebrand
 09:04:27 – The rebrand – key decision points
 11:21:05 – How to decide if a packaging redesign makes sense
 12:52:03 – Packaging redesigns – balancing the familiar with the new
 14:18:14 – Unveiling the rebrand at ExpoWest
 15:32:08 – The rebrand – KPIs
 16:39:27 – Retail Media Networks
 19:44:04 – Work with an expert to get Amazon listings set up
 20:36:08 – No two Retail Media Networks are alike
 21:57:04 – Retail Media Network recommendations
 22:43:17 – Driving ecom sales vs in-store sales
 23:46:23 – Digital rebates
 26:24:10 – Resourcing – internal vs external
 29:45:17 – Trends and brands Kim is tracking

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Links:

Egglife Foods – https://www.egglifefoods.com
Follow Kim on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcd82/
Follow me on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/
Check out https://www.kitprint.co/ for CPG production design support.

Transcript

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today we're speaking with Kim McDermott who is joining us from the Chicago area Kim is the Omni Channel Senior Brand Manager at Egg Life where she leads all things e commerce digital retail shopper and experiential marketing Kim's got a long track record of spearheading key marketing and brand initiatives of pretty iconic brands like Kellogg Molson Coors Gallo etcetera so definitely excited to dive into it so yeah Kim maybe just first off for listeners that the ones that aren't that familiar with Egg Life maybe just give just quick lay the land just in terms of origin story I behind the brand products you guys offer and maybe just throw out a few places where people can get their hands on them and then we'll start from there yeah absolutely so um thanks for having me Adam really appreciate being here yeah Egg Life has been around since 2019 so we're pretty young brand we are the superior alternative to a traditional flour based tortilla our products are made with egg whites so much like you can make at home it's a very simple clean product our signature core wraps they're available in six flavors nationwide at more than 15,000 retailers so you can get them at Kroger Aldi Sprouts Whole Foods Target Walmart you name it we're pretty much there the company started simply because our founder Peggy couldn't really find the foods that she wanted to that were high in protein and low in carb out there in the marketplace so she decided to make it herself at home and perfected it over a short amount of time and was able to get it to market and so our wraps have really kind of transformed what people can do with traditional flour based products and basically gives an opportunity for consumers to enjoy the foods that they love but might not have been able to eat in the past so anything that you can make with bread or a tortilla or a wrap you can make with egg life I love them it's a it's a really smart product yeah first you spent a lot of your career at yes and Kellogg Egg Life is definitely a newer brand you know fast growing brand much smaller than what you're used to I'm just curious what was that what was what's been maybe the the biggest surprise after making that shift yeah I feel like such a I feel this is so typical for me to say but Covid kind of changed everything true so I had been in the alcohol industry for about 15 years working in a variety of different marketing facets and got really into ECOM right before Covid hit and when Instacart started to take off online shopping and got an opportunity to go to Kellogg's which obviously huge legacy brands great portfolio and working commercial strategy on the ECOM side so really start to understand internally how to sell into a larger organization the value of ECOM and dot com and the value of online sales in a time when things were kind of going nuts with Covid and everybody was stuck at home so I I went there for a couple of years and then I had kids so again yet another reason to have a catalyst in your career started to realize that I was starting to care more about what I was feeding my family and a lot of big brands that I had admired in the past or some that I'd worked for started to realize that there's a lot of additives and preservatives and dyes and everything else in products and not to belittle that there's a time and a place for those types of products but what I started to notice was in the health and wellness space and the natural food products was that you could get what you wanted without having to sacrifice on taste and egg life played a big part of that when I uh started to research the brand and and the company and figure out where they came from and how they started and what their core values and principles were and it really is a clean product very few ingredients and very transparent I think that's the one thing that I found is really important in my with my transition is working for a company where transparency is apparent not only internally but externally consumer facing as well and so yes went to a from big big CPG's down to a very small startup and it's been here almost three years and it's been a great learning experience that's great for a similar boat working for I don't know multinational CPG conglomerates they're thinking about making a are considering making a move to more you know upstart brand fast growing much smaller brand it's like I don't know one or two three things that jump out in terms of what should they expect that's gonna be maybe the the biggest change or shock and you need to be very comfortable with ambiguity and constant change I love learning new things and so I found in you know large organizations CPG and otherwise there's a lot of red tape there's a lot of upward stagnation when you are trying to develop new processes bring new new ideas to the fold the great thing about a startup is that you have autonomy you are an owner and a stakeholder in the brand's success and ultimately if you have the right team around you they'll let you do what you want to do to make the role your own and to help drive the success of the business materially and again lack of structure not necessarily the most stable in terms of like my OK is getting that constant refill but uh in the long in the long run I think the value that I've Learned in taking on so many different roles in this company I'm not pigeonholed into one position and I also really have a stake in whether this company succeeds which is something that kind of puts you closer to entrepreneurship yourself right I think everybody or most people that I know in the CPG world would have ideas of their own on how to bring new products new brands new services to life and this is kind of a stepping stone getting there yeah totally that's really helpful for people earlier this year looks great by the way what what was the y behind the rebrand or meaning like you know what LED to that decision to go through a massive rebrand in the first place and any like specific shopper behavior data points you were seeing yeah I'm just kind of curious what what the y was initially yeah I'm definitely not gonna be the subject matter expert on this but I can speak to it because I have been through with the brand the last few years so one of the big things about Egg Life is we still lack awareness despite being ubiquitous in the marketplace and having a lot of loyal brand followers when you say egg life to just you know the average shopper at like a Walmart or target a lot of times they don't know who we are so a lot of what we need to focus on is um brand and product awareness continually as well as findability in store we've had some legacy hurdles where we were able to get into retail accounts early and grow and do really great things with them but there's never a a singular point of distribution you know if you need to buy butter you know where to find butter if you need to buy an egg white wrap it can be in the shredded cheese it can be in the eggs it can be in the refrigerated bakery it can be in the health market section it can be next to cookie dough we're featuring cookie dough so findability was a big thing and then driving awareness to our brand we found that the packaging itself while it was the rainbow effect right where we could get in multiple skews was really eye popping on shelf and the macros were clear on package people still didn't know how to use us and so a couple of things that we really wanted to hone in on were making sure we're playing up that color pop and that rainbow effect to to the maximum but also that we were providing occasion usage and day parting kind of inspiration for folks whether it be from breakfast to you know your lunch wraps to dessert sweets I think our rebranding has allowed us to really play that up while still showcasing like what we are and having the little people and being able to see like what is this product it's just really popped and I I give a testament to our CMO for kind of sticking it out through the process was a very long process to get to where we are but seeing 4 times purchase intent in the consumer response data helps us realize that we're going the right direction you touch on the the process how long the process I was like once that decision was made yes we are going to move forward with a rebrand everyone's aligned in this what did that process look like from beginning then you don't have to go in in every little detail but what were some of like the the key steps that were involved we had to do we do eye tracking studies we had to do some consumer calls to understand like what is it that that isn't coming through on package what can Aiden find ability when we know that we're not in the same place there is so really standing out on shelf having an ownable color we we we've seen other brands in our space lean into vibrant hues and kind of own that color and so we needed to find something unique for Egg Life kind of blurple bar branding that you see that's the constant across all of our our product lines is is how we're kind of leaning into that and then yeah it was it was a multi agency long drawn out process where again small company everybody has an opinion everybody's a marketer and so just trying to dial in the what do we need to convey how do we do it in the simplest way possible in the cleanest way possible that speaks to our brand mission and values and can step step out on shelf yeah you talk about every everyone's market it feels like in these types of initiatives where everyone wants to have a say any decision points that you're looking back were like the most contentious internally or required the most debate that's great and letting folks see it when they needed to see it and not before then because again very small team and we all want to we all are trying to go in the same direction and to to help improve the brand um so yeah she did a great job with that and I think we got to a really great place finally yeah yeah for I mean decision by committee and these types of things often doesn't end up in the best the best place so siloing things and only showing when it's ready I think makes a lot of sense yeah and and another thing is we got a lot of positive response from the retailers when we showed it to our buyers so that kind of help reinforce that we were going in the right direction yeah and then when you start to see it expand but beyond our core product line it really starts to bring the brand to life yeah totally I know as like part of the rebrand you you introduced a resealable pouch which I thought was really smart what LED the team to to finally pull the trigger in this cause I imagine that that was talked about for a while yeah this is literally been part of the Egg Life brand from day one um we actually when we first launched this predates me had resellability on our packaging in a different format but unfortunately through having it on shelf there's just a lot that goes into the science behind the gases that are kept in the bag to maintain freshness right it is a refrigerated perishable product and so we wanted to make sure we got it right so that we didn't have any quality issues when we got to shelf and it's just taking that long unfortunately but it also gave us an opportunity to launch that at the same time as the redesign and and the brand refresh so it was just yet another positive attribute to our our brand relaunch that we could kind of tout at the same time yeah that totally makes sense brand leader at a fast growing CPG brand similar stage to Egg Life I was having a conversation with you and I told you hey you know we're considering a packaging refresh what questions like might you ask that would just help me confirm just even if it's this is the right strategy in general I think the biggest thing is what is the objective of the brand refresh like what are you hoping to get out of this and what is the biggest pain point of your current packaging to figure out whether it's worth it um if it's that you really need to increase sales velocity without your current rent that the packaging refresh might not be the answer yeah and for us again it came down to communication on shelf given our challenges with findability and lack of consumer education we really tried to hone in on the things that we knew weren't working currently so yeah that's that's the biggest thing I mean I've worked at bigger companies that have done refreshes every season with like the new football teams right you know the Christmas packaging and which have very different objectives most of which are geared more toward satisfying retailer needs um or off shelf displays but yeah this was really about us kind of taking the next step knowing that we were going to be launching new product lines as well and we needed to change up the communication hierarchy on package so that it worked for the consumer yeah I feel like you guys did a really good job of with this I think also was like the challenge of how do you balance the need for a fresh look obviously you're doing a rebrand for a reason but you also wanna keep like some level of familiarity for those existing you know customers that have been buying the brand for a while Wanna make sure when they're walking down the aisle they immediately know still what they're looking at and you know where to find it and not feel like you know it's a totally new brand or product how did that come up in conversations at all in terms of balancing yeah that need for a fresh look while keeping some of those familiar legacy brand elements let's say because we haven't been around as long right and so we own the name I think actually the bigger hurdle comes when you are a legacy brand and you don't wanna mess with things and you don't wanna make the wrong move and have to revert and I know that there's been a lot of recent brands in the headlines about that particularly in the beverage space so I think that we had it a little bit easier because we still have a lot of room to grow for brand awareness and now we can kind of take this and this is not perfect either I will say we've already identified some challenges and some need to make some optimizations just given all the different ways that our product shows up on shelf sometimes it's on a peg hole sometimes it lays flat sometimes it's in a shelf ready display case sometimes it's not and so how do we best utilize our No. 1 marketing billboard opportunity to quickly and easily help consumers find us and explain what we are totally yeah that makes a lot of sense booth looked great I was there was super busy yes seems like expos there's in one instance like a great event for these kind of things a lot of the most important stakeholders you're trying to get in front of at least from the BTB standpoint and CPG are there so you can really get the message out maybe on the flip side because you know it's like the Super Bowl of CPG every you know brand is there it seemed like in the flip side it could be harder to like really rise above the noise to a certain extent to launching a successful kind of rebrand at XBOS props to my coworker uh Steph Hunter on this because she kind of really owned this space but it was about being very bold in every facet so we are in the emerging brands area the new hot new product section and we've been there the past couple of years in a similar space so it was about us kind of showing up in a really big way so we leaned in entirely into that purplish color across all of our brand and across all of the touch points so not just the booth itself but we did a great um you know the the apparel that the team was wearing we did a merch line to try and drive some interest and um we pulled that through socials so that we were announcing drops at our booth to drive traffic to the booth and we made sure that everything complimented our new product line so we showed the product in coolers and provided some information about where it would go and where the new product lines should sit on shelf because we have very distinct categories that we are now playing in but also making sure that we stayed true to our brand purpose and vision as well our core products our wraps because that that big bold color effect it just looked so great when we got it live yeah it looked looked really good so it's been a few months since the some of those key metrics that you guys have been focused on to gauge the success and impact of the rebrand yeah so and on the onset I think I mentioned the purchase intent and something that we wanted to make sure was clear and so that was kind of a key deciding factor with what we went with it's really early and I know that our sales team would love to see kind of you know attribution now but part of the things that we need to focus on are is it really helping our household penetration rate is it helping with trial and repeat we'll continue to do eye tracking studies to understand is it conveying the message you need to convey and and getting that attention on shelf um and then again more retailer reactions because what works for grocery might not work for club what might not work for all channels as we start to expand so we need to make sure that we're continuing to make optimizations and not rest on our laurels shifting gears a bit from at least from what I know everything related to retail media network stuff what and it is kind of a broad question so let you take it however you want but like what does a well rounded strategy look like for a brand that's investing budget here and what should they keep top of mind and every platform has different capabilities your KPIs should be closely tied to your store sales objectives so if you have a high digital penetration rate at a given retailer more of your resources should be dedicated to your retail media network versus more of your those legacy retailers that really haven't developed the capabilities on their platforms seems pretty obvious but when you get you know buyers in the mix and they're trying to tell you to invest and everybody has a retail media network it's about being smart for where you're investing there's definitely we don't look at Roe's very often we flip it to more a cost and I know that that's a standardized term in the industry as well to set a benchmark and threshold of which we're not going to spend above as a percentage of our total sales because you can get a 12 ROAS off of anything but you keep investing and it's there's gonna be a point of diminishing returns so flip it us on its head take into account your total store sales not just your attributed sales not just your online sales take into account all of your sales particularly if you're getting up into those high 30% ranges of digital penetration and then make sure that everything is I hate to say it it is so cliche but omni channel so if you're going to be investing in on site search and you've got a offer running like a promotional offer running in store make sure that that is pacing against what you know would likely be increased traffic around promotional periods make sure that you have the ability to plus up that activation by pulling it off site or doing something around your social and paid meta around that um it's just about being very closely tied to your total sales KPIs and then putting forth the KPIs on the platforms to assist with that yeah yeah that's super helpful does I'm not an expert here on Amazon but it seems like on like Amazon which we'll talk about in a second but it seems like what's happening in Amazon it almost seems like it's kind of a requirement to participate in their ad network and established and sophisticated retail media network does does it feel like investing in those essentially is starting to feel like you know a requirement and kind of a must do to to win at retail or is it still um so we don't have any JBPS per se as a as an emerging brand but we're getting to the point right and yes it has very much become the equivalent of a slotting fee in some regards right but I would say it's more prominent on some retailers than others Amazon is obviously its own beast because it is a 3p and you kind of make it what you want it to be we used to have products sold on core through our 3pl and that was a very different strategy than we have now where we've sunset that and only operate on fresh and Whole Foods so we leverage Amazon advertising through just the fresh and Whole Foods platforms yeah got it kind of push through that so we're in we're in a bit of a unique space as a refrigerated product um but I would say for Amazon in particular I think you mentioned this before when we were talking that if you're not on Amazon yet and you're getting ready to set it up finding somebody who knows exactly what to do because it's very hard to change things on skews or Acens once they are established the biggest thing that we found is you know go back to your objectives of what is Amazon doing for you is it is it is it a core need channel is it competing against your DTC we no longer have DTC so that's not an issue for us is it acting as a growth channel driving incrementality or is it really just a survival place for you to continue to drive brand awareness for people who are just looking to understand more about Egg Life is it is it an education outlet that can help inform the level of investment you make and how you set up your products on the platform whether you varyate or whether you don't varyate is is really important when you are first setting something up you you talked about there's um no retail media network is alike or like an example of some of the biggest differences between a few of them I've been really surprised at and I won't call them out individually but I've been really surprised at the level of transparency between among certain retail media networks um very one very large one is I have a dedicated account executive who works very closely with us to provide as much reporting as possible knowing that we are an emerging brand and don't necessarily qualify for the level of detailed reporting that they give to legacy brands and conversely I've got another retail media network that is a an established grocery retailer that has all the data we know they have the data doesn't share the data and unfortunately it just inhibits everybody all around right if we can't figure out what's driving our brand at your retailer we can't help fix it we can't help you know improve the growth trajectory and we can't continue to invest more dollars in an unproven platform so there's again no two are alike and it all goes back to what your retailer objectives in total are to sum this up in terms of retail media networks for brands that are just starting to dabble and starting to spend dollars here out of one or two top things they should let's say auto campaigns will only take you so far it's very important although it seems easy and that AI and models should be able to generate what works for your brand you need to continue to test um not just with keywords and bid strategies but tests a tactic layered on top of another to figure out what is driving it is it upper funnel is it lower funnel we don't always give visibility into what our competition is doing what are ways you can work around conquisting against your competition if you can't directly target them work within your category so if you're one of a handful of brands that are advertising your category what can you do to make yourself stand above the rest and it doesn't have to be a lot of money it's just about being smart with your investments yeah think about balancing efforts to like yeah that so that it's funny because it's all kind of starting to blur right like especially when you're talking feels like it yeah like well you need to invest here in order for us to give you this display activity right so yeah I don't I don't necessarily know that there's there's like a clear set of tactics I I think of one retailer in particular where we really struggle on repeat and so which we don't we're not struggling in other retailers so it's like what is what is the underlying factor here why are we seeing higher spoils why is this not working and it's not a particularly high digitally penetrated retailer so we have to lean more into our resources of in store and it goes back to honestly old school tactics like we are just working off of a trade promotion calendar we are doing whatever we can to drive visibility on shelf and we're doing things to try and educate consumers when they're at the point of purchase how does this digital rebate work exactly and how do you drive customers to follow that multi step process to actually go through the full the full workflow let's say there's tons of companies we've probably tested all of them in Ink Life to be honest to figure out what sticks and again these all go back to individual retailers as well so a digital rebate is not going to work as well at one retailer over another and you just kind of have to come to terms with that um it goes back to the level of digital savviness of their consumers and so we you know we everybody knows Ibotta we use Ibotta we use aisle for a lot of different tactics the digital rebates there's a couple different ways you can do it you can incent folks to go and purchase based off of a offer that they see either on a loyalty app or that they get served through an ad and then essentially they go buy it in good faith and they come home and they take a picture of their receipt and they upload it and then usually get money deposited either onto their app account or through a rebate like a Paypal or a Venmo we try when we're doing things like this to limit the number of times that we incent because a lot of these digital rebates have become super ubiquitous throughout particularly the emerging brand landscape where we can't compete retailers are also kind of phasing out traditional coupons as is due to fraud and and just costs and waste so these digital rebate platforms are everywhere but it's becoming pretty clear that there's a certain cohort of users consumers that will use them and there's just a cohort of users that will not yeah so your older consumers are just likely not going to be as as prone to it and even like the youngest consumers don't want to make the effort it's a lot of it's a lot to go through to save $1 on a package of wraps and so kind of you have to weigh the value of the offer the frequency of it do you offer someone a lower offer but give them the opportunity to redeem it multiple times or in multiple trips um it all goes back to that strategy and the less friction that you can put along the path to purchase the better however I will say that there's still if you're requiring somebody to go and show something in store like if you're showing a digital barcode on your phone there is still that hurdle of technology both on the consumer side and on the retailer or the cashier side so all of this is still kind of evolving and again I know there's a lot of companies out there that are offering this it's just about being smart when you use it and really being targeted as to who's getting it you just putting a blanket offer out there and letting it being available to everyone isn't going to drive the results that I think most people intend for it when you guys are thinking about resourcing like what frameworks do you guys use or how do you think about like variables or factors coming to place you're thinking about building out your plan with regards like internal versus external resources like influencer management or creative agencies packaging design they always tend to bring in house versus ones you always contract out or is it pretty situational that that you found and maybe it's different at an organized organization the size of egg life versus yeah a course and a Gallo right yeah yeah it's definitely a so again we are small and scrappy and so if someone isn't playing six roles on this team they're probably not gonna be hired for one specific need so we've done a variety of different models when it comes to like media management and when I started we were a hub and spoke model where we kind of had you know PR on one end and influence on the other and above the line media and everybody kind of played their own role and then creative we've since then we went to a consolidated strategy where we had an all in one house and neither of those worked perfectly and so we're back to more of like a hybrid now I would say where we try and find resources that compliment the existing agency that we have either that through relationships that they have with other clients or more of a one off basis because we're not we have an evergreen strategy and we pulse during certain promotional periods like back to school and New Year's being our big tent poles but we don't really have an always on need for that much of a resource effort internally and we found some really great you know this new model of working remotely and having kind of people able to build their own lifestyles around their work gives us the opportunity to find some really great talent that we can just do project based work with from a creative side or um even from like the experiential tour you know this won't be something that we would do experiential and keep on staff all year long it's just not big we're not a big enough brand and how do you guys yeah how does like a you know some sort of external partner win your business let's say I think what I've seen in the last three years is that we are in a interesting egg life is an interesting hybrid state where we are not at a point where we can hire an agency or a resource that's going to grow along with us that we that kind of grows up with us we're also not a small fish in a very big pond when it comes to big traditional agencies and so we're in this like hybrid state where we need somebody who has some pedigree of expertise but isn't the biggest agency out there and I think we found that we move so fast at a small company that we need folks who are genuinely dedicated individually to our brand that again are just as committed to seeing the brand succeed as we are because they're ultimately another brand steward another brand ambassador for us and if they don't believe in the strategy that we have if they don't believe in our execution or our creative or our new campaign then it's gonna fall flat and so all of our agency partners I would say are true partners we have a great media agency that we work with and I think has kind of stepped in at the right time for us as we start to grow and expand on our product lines last question for you Kim any specific brands or just general trends across the CBG space that been kind of piquing your interest or ones you've been tracking yeah so anything that I can feed my kids which sounds so fair enough that I really I I just there's some brands that I'm just so inspired by like Ithaca I think is doing great things Sals the the pasta sauce brand and how they're kind of targeting Gen Z in a unique space in a very very traditional category Johnny Pops and solely kind of taking on the the kids snacks and the kids desserts in the right way proving that you don't have to have all these fake ingredients and terrible things that we all ate as 80s and 90s kids growing up and hopefully they haven't affected us long term but yeah and and there's there's just some brands that are doing really great with certain retailers that I think is really cool too some brands that are really popped at target veggies make great is one of those ones where they've just kind of owned the frozen category and with a with a good message and kind of that exclusivity at those retailers that's I think really helping to drive traffic there I think those make a lot of sense really appreciate the time you've shared a lot of really useful insights I think people listen to this and get get some good stuff they can take away from it and what's the best place for people to follow along with you and also with egg life as well yeah so our uh we're on Instagram we're on TikTok we're on Facebook uh we're on Reddit we're on Pinterest and you know please follow along at Egg Life foods.com we have a big announcement today so hopefully when this airs um it'll be out there but we are launching our pasta today so very excited protein 20+ grams of protein less than I think 5 grams of carbs really great way to get your pasta fix without all of the guilt so yeah I'm excited to try it very excited awesome can't appreciate this been great appreciate the time thank you Adam Alrighty some of the biggest brands in the world like Coors and there is no structure um you and the team rolled out a pretty big rebrand so consumer research first and foremost right were there I think I think our CMO did a great job of gatekeeping yeah I think it was easier for us part of the big unveil at least at Expo West this year yeah I gotta give um what were what were and I guess have been the one of the things you oversee is retail media network yeah I think it depends on the size of your brand those are all really great to drive econ sales and then drive customers to buy yeah there's there's a variety of different tactics out there this is really helpful really helpful like what is your guys like due diligence process Kim this has been awesome