Bryn Jones - 8 Restaurants and Millions in CPG Retail Sales

On this episode, we’re joined by Bryn Jones, the VP of Marketing & Retail at Huse Culinary, 123-year-old company with 8 restaurants in Indy and millions in CPG retail sales across the U.S.

While most guests enjoy St. Elmo for its legendary shrimp cocktail, Bryn has transformed the brand into a multi-category CPG powerhouse with sauces, spices, and spirits sold in over 3,000 stores nationwide. Bryn built the CPG division from the ground up.

Bryn shares the ulcer-inducing R&D stories behind his most successful launches, how they 10x’d their year 1 forecast, and the unique advantage of owning bars and restaurants as a CPG brand.

Episode Highlights:

🍤 The origin of St. Elmo’s iconic cocktail sauce
📈 How a restaurant brand became a CPG growth engine
🧠 Bryn, the “intrapreneur”
🧪 Formulation stories and co-packer headaches
🥃 How they built a spirits line from in-house bar recipes
🛒 How to use restaurant data to pitch retail buyers
💰 The spirits SKU that 10x’d its year-one forecast
📦 Category strategy and GTM lessons
🧊 Managing refrigerated, shelf-stable, and alcohol supply chains
🚀 Trial is everything
📊 Bryn’s perspective on category trends and innovation

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Table of Contents:

00:00:00 – Huse origin story and portfolio
04:18:11 – Expanding from 8 restaurants into selling millions of units in CPG
05:55:28 – Bryn, the "intrapreneur"
07:46:13 – How Bryn splits his time between 8 restaurants and the CPG division
09:32:09 – Shrimp cocktail sauce, spices, then spirits + the difficulties of CPG
13:39:20 – Formulation and R&D, getting an ulcer or two
16:24:00 – Standing out in competitive categories like sauces and spices
18:42:09 – Spirits formulation process, leveraging Huse bars and their expert team
21:39:06 – The spirits SKU that 10x’d the year 1 forecast
24:13:16 – Leveraging restaurant and bar data for CPG production innovation
27:40:28 – Using restaurant/bar data to pitch retailers (or not)
30:23:18 – The foodservice and CPG flywheel
33:00:22 – How they 10x’d the year 1 forecast
34:43:15 – CPG retail go-to-market recommendations
36:55:08 – Catering to multiple buyer groups and retail stakeholders
39:57:21 – Trial is the north star
44:46:27 – Trends/brands Bryn is tracking

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Links:

Huse Culinary – https://www.huseculinary.com
Follow Bryn on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/1brynjones/
Follow me on LinkedIn – Ahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/
Check out https://www.kitprint.co/ for CPG production design support.

Transcript

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welcome to shelf help uh today we're speaking with Brin Jones who's joining us from the Indianapolis area Brin is the VP of marketing at Hughes Culinary which is a pretty diverse restaurant and CPG Group based out of Indy Brenda's been in the spoon building at CPG Space for for quite a while leading various spirits and restaurants ventures so definitely excited to dive in so just first off for the listeners that aren't as familiar with Hughes Brent maybe just kind of just give a quick lay of the land just in terms of maybe the origin story I know the company's been around quite a while brands under the the Hughes umbrella and on both the restaurant and the CPG side and then maybe just a few places that people can get their hands on the CPG products as well and then we'll start there yeah absolutely so yeah Hugh's culinary uh started probably cash I guess close to about 40 years ago really in in terms of our origin so we're a hospitality company at at heart so our our flagship brand and and flagship restaurant is Saint Omar Steakhouse so you know consistently ranks amongst the top 25 independent restaurants in the US you know on all the lists of best steakhouses and wherever in XYZ so we're really kind of that old school classic famous steakhouse but also always looking to innovate and never rest on our laurels whether that's technology or innovation so so we're we're fortunate to have that be kind of the spearhead of of a lot of the things we do and that was our first leaning into uh the CPG side but stay in our restaurants we've got other a few other restaurant brands we've got Harry and Izzy's which is kind of pays tribute homage to the former founder or the former owners of Saint Elmo was Harry Roth and Isidor Izzy Rosen so that kind of pays homage to those guys and Craig felt our owners really felt like you know doing a second Saint Elmo kind of cheapened the brand and so as long as they're in charge they'll always only be one Saint Elmo steakhouse Harry and Izzy's were up to three locations uh working on a fourth uh in Phoenix Arizona up to this point though everything's located in Indianapolis we have 1933 Lounge is another brand of ours we've got multiple locations of that we're up to three locations of 1933 Lounge and then the last one is we got HC Tavern and kitchen which is a kind of a new age American grill located in Fishers so yeah we're uh we're growing we're up to eight restaurants and and growing and on the CPG side we've got essentially three different brands on that side we've got Saint Anne's Steakhouse and so that's like seasoning cocktail sauce things like that we have a spirit side also under Saint Elmo so that's like you know Old Fashioned and Cherry Vanilla Bourbon is our our No. 1 best seller on that side so that's a product that it's just taken off and and gone like wildfire and we've got two other two other separate brands on also on the spirit side we've got Rare Saint which is a whiskey brand some barrel finished stuff a lot of it barrel strength we don't do the distillation ourselves we partner and work directly with some of the top distilling partners in the Midwest many of them are are mainly in Indiana one of the largest Bourbon uh producers in the world is is based in Indiana which people don't know and they're absolutely phenomenal and so we've got a few partners on that side that we do some contract distilling on just great partners and then uh our last brand that we have is Bar Keep Vodka which is a innovative process on a vodka the way that vodka is distilled is is fairly similar on that as as as what you'd see with any other top shelf vodka it's done as high end as you can possibly do but it's the finishing process is what makes it different we partnered with a guy is actually a science based entrepreneur in Indiana who developed this process it's been patented and it's really disrupting the spirits industry but what it does is it it puts the product any spirit under pressure and that pressure releases the molecules that create bite burn and aftertaste so I won't try to explain it further than that because he's got like 14 PhD's I think and just wicked crazy smart dude I was teaching molecular genetics at IU when he was 18 if that wants if that validates how smart this guy is but this process has kind of been a game changer in the spirits world and we're the first to launch a vodka with it so super excited about those so that's that's kind of a rundown we're a hospitality company we're also a CPG brand at our core and we make great products for people to enjoy whether it's in our restaurants or in their homes started focusing on the restaurants obviously had a lot of success there I'm just curious about that journey that was kind of inside the company in terms of ultimately just coming to that decision or conclusion that it made sense to expand beyond the restaurant world and really put a big focus on on the CPG space yeah I I don't know that there was ever a strong like focus on we're gonna become a big CPG brand I mean last year we shipped over a million products well over a million products and we've become you know a fairly a fairly a fast growing company in that space but it was never like that I I don't know that the intent was ever like that the intent was simply so many people want our cocktail sauce and they keep asking for it how do we make people happy you know we're in the hospitality business and when people want something we're in the business of wanting to say yes and giving them the thing that they're asking for so really that's kind of where it started and and I'd say I kind of say it was my side hustle to start you know Craig our our CEO and co owner of Saint Elmo with his father Steve Hughes it was his idea to do it and it the project just kind of fell on my lap I done everything up to that point business development sales marketing you know product PNL management all of the things that kind of would be helpful to to take that project and run and and I've been doing that for the last 12 years so what started off as a side hustle now is up to I think we've got about eight people that pretty much are are fully dedicated to that side of the business and yeah we continue to grow and it's expanded to now three product lines so I don't know that it was intentional like let's make this big splash and go throw a bunch of money at it it's just grown naturally and organically based on giving people a product that they really wanted yeah that makes total sense whether you came on board to to actually the goal is to build this out or you came on board and then at some point decided to make this decision but it seems like it to a certain extent you've been kind of a an entrepreneur to a certain extent like building this new business within a you know a company that's been around for 40 50+ years as you mentioned I'm just kind of curious what's that what's that experience been like an entrepreneur I guess I I am that on the spirit side you know I was one of four founding partners on the spirit side so I'm somewhat of an entrepreneur on that side in terms of these new products and new brands that we're starting but I really kind of put myself in the category of being an entrepreneur which I think a lot of people fit into that role you know is somebody who really just takes ownership of a product and and of a project so I I would never go you know to to Craig who's my boss and and partner on the spirit side but when he was solely my boss I mean I'm I'm never going to him going hey here's this problem help me fix it you know it was more along the lines of here's the problem here's the smarter people than me that helped me fix it and told me what we should do you know and and have the humility you know the hunger to solve a problem and make something better but the humility to not think you you have all the answers and so I I was always coming to him with hey here's this new opportunity this is how I think we should approach it and you know he gave me a pretty long leash I mean he's he's managing a restaurant empire and a retail division with you know close to 1,000 employees now so he doesn't need people that bring him problems he needs people that bring him solutions and help him solve things so and I think that's what an an entrepreneur can do and and the benefit to me is I don't have the risk that he has I don't have the exposure you know I don't need the financial capital to launch some of the things that we've been able to do and so it's a good balance of of me providing value and adding value into his organization um and doing it in a way that that reduces problems but also creates opportunity yeah I think it's a great setup I would say in its own right now you've got this big business you're in you know I think two 3000+ doors at this point how what have you found is the best way to effectively just really split your time between the the two divisions that's tough I mean it it I am I am add hardcore by trade I think it it uh it on my on my health report to violate hipaa laws I I believe it says chronic as the term it says for my add so my ADHD so I'm always looking for the next thing or the next idea you know what I mean we got probably you know six figures worth of free press because somebody stole a a four foot taxidermy fox out of one of our restaurants that was worth $1,000 and instead of going to IMPD and saying help us catch the people that stole this I was like just give me the video we're gonna post this online it goes viral creates a ton of press and a ton of buzz and you know so I'm I I think it's looking it's trying to identify the greatest opportunity to drive attention to our company and just add value to everything that I do whether that's my team brands so it's it's a little bit of a hard thing I mean a biggest focus of me right now is how do I make sure that the people that I work with have everything that they need and that's where I spend the the most of my time I think and where I'm most valuable is making sure that I have the right people in the right place that I work with and and everybody else that we try to support has everything that they need from us so it's it's really you know we treat ourselves in the marketing department as I lead that group for both restaurants and CPG I kind of almost I always tell them like we should be treating this like we're an internal ad agency you know we support everybody else in their roles and if we help them win we're gonna win as an organization yeah I think that's a great approach sauce was the first thing you you brought out of the restaurant into retail and then spices a few years later followed by the spirits what was just that journey or kind of thought process around starting with sauces first then spirits and then or then spices then finally spirits yeah I mean it's it's a difficult it was a it was a fun journey a difficult journey but it was one where I kind of went like I I guess it's that idea of burn the boats it was we're famous for cocktail sauce if this thing fails I'm a failure I mean I really took it extremely personally and had a lot of I put way more pressure on myself than anybody else ever did but it was it was hard out of the gate because it CPG and I didn't know how hard CPG was when I first got into it but as a category it sucks I mean it it's it's extremely difficult to launch anything in that category and be profitable I mean I think the failure rate I've been told is in the neighborhood of around 95% of new CPG products last five years the failure rate is high I think restaurants the ten year success rate of restaurants is is like I think I wanna say it's it's a little bit higher than 10% make it that long you know maybe it's closer to 20% but the failure rate and and the difficulty of both of the industries that I've chosen to go into is both very hard so it's it's challenging but I I think it's that mentality of like this is gonna be successful we're gonna keep pushing at this until it is and simply having that mentality then it makes it more of a matter of time as opposed to if this is going to be successful it's like it's gonna work we just don't know how long it's gonna take again surrounding myself and trying to find advocates and people that I'm connected to and that I know that and or that I can connect to that can help me or help us make you know wiser decisions it it was a struggle I I guess to to really touch on your question yes we we launched with cocktail sauce right out of the gate really strong sales online but had a hard time getting a foothold into restaurant or into into retail but you know that took a year or so and it was one of those where you know everybody at the time if you're trying to do something like this with it whether entrepreneur in my case entrepreneur if you go to somebody who hasn't done it they're probably gonna tell you you're crazy they're going to say you shouldn't do this like I guarantee your business if you went to your parents or your your brother or your friend and said hey I'm thinking about doing this I have this safe and successful stable job they likely said you're crazy don't do it I think that comes from one of two places it either comes from a place of they're trying to help you and they don't want you to fail and they don't want you to see that hardship that comes from a healthy place other people I think try to shoot things down and and make it not happen because it comes from a place that they've never chased their dream or thing that that they want it they've never wrote that book or started that new thing so you really can't talk to people who haven't done it because you're only gonna get negativity whether it's coming from a place of positive or negative it's still gonna be the same message so you've got to really kind of block out the noise and we were able to do that and I was able to do that by you know somebody saying hey you're a restaurant group what do you know about CPG you're not gonna be successful and just being able to kind of put blinders on and go we're gonna figure it out we'll be fine and you know we did that in Indianapolis and but it does it never stops right it we figured it out in Indy and then it was like well you're an Indy brand but nobody knows you outside of Indy well then we did it in the rest of the state and then it was well you guys are Indiana but let's be honest you can't go anywhere else and we've just kind of kept pushing those boundaries and kept being successful by figuring out you know kind of pattern recognition of what works well for us fast forward to today you know we're in you know close to close to 30 different states we're like we were just reading a report the other day where we're kicking ass with HEB all the way in Texas with with cocktail sauce and and and Korean horse riders so we're getting some wins and we continue to kind of you know but it yeah you I think the struggle is finding the right people that you can listen to and blocking out the negativity and and just kind of that mentality of going this is gonna be successful we just don't know how how long it's gonna take yeah talking about that formulation and product development a bit I think pretty sure I read somewhere that you went through like 25+ batches of the cocktail sauce to really get that heat profile right even and personally you personally tasted like everyone maybe even to the point of getting an ulcer or two I'm just curious like without yeah you're waiting great secrets what were some of those like I guess key variables you were playing around with with all those different batches or key tweaks you made but yeah between that first version and that final version where you felt like this is this is right this is the one yeah so our the initial group that we worked with actually a local company um in in Indianapolis and they're no longer around anymore unfortunately for them but them kind of going out of business is us seeing that coming the writing was on the wall we needed to find somebody else and and and do that fast and honestly we got fortunate with the group that we found um that we partner with full disclosure I'll tell you who they are we partner with Silver Spring in Eau Claire Wisconsin and they are the number they are the world's largest purveyor and processor of horseradish so our cocktail sauce is all horseradish so that was kind of a good natural fit there and their team is amazing we work directly with them they have R&D scientists they know all the chemistry and so on our end essentially what we're doing is partnering with their experts and leaders to go here is this product that that they've done to our specifications and then matching that against the restaurant and then from there they were going through a process of finding new innovations and really pushing themselves on kind of the limits of their expertise in in terms of cocktail sauce and how to keep that heat in there it's a weird product if you heat cocktail sauce up it'll lose all of its spiciness which is just kind of weird and so there's different things that they've Learned over time of how to retain that heat and they kind of kept getting even a little bit better and better so it allowed us to continually improve our product to where it is today it's it's really close to it's never gonna be why the experience that you get in the restaurant and and we understand that but I mean that's a product that's made fresh you know two or three times every shift I mean that's how fresh it is so we know it'll never be that but it's it's pretty damn close and it's really good so but yeah it's it's just anybody that's in business knows that it's never about you like you can't just stop right you you're always continually pushing for that next thing and in that case we had the North Star we had this product that we're famous for and gets on you know ESPN and NFL and all these things is the thing that everybody loves to talk about already we just had to go and just keep pushing to get it as close to where it matches the restaurant as possible and that's where we finally ended up but it was a struggle to get there yeah totally that's that's that's great insight on the spice side of things how can a brand like how how your brands really kind of differentiate themselves in this category is it really proprietary blends is it you know more like proprietary suppliers you just get you know better quality spices than everyone else or um what does this look like and kind of how how are you how have you guys approached this in terms of trying to create a differentiated product in this category yeah I mean to to have success on the back end of of answering that question that's a tough question I feel like this could be an hour long answer in itself but I'll try to keep it brief I think differentiating yourself something that we always look for that I always kind of push our teams and and we always look for just based on what I see succeeding in the marketplace at the highest level is I think there's three things that can make you successful on a product launch in my mind at least it's first best only are you the first one to roll out that product is it the best product on the market are you the only one with the ability to do something or position it in a certain way so we were the only ones to say Saint Elmo and we had a ton of brand recognition behind our name so that helped on that one you know we are the only cocktail sauce out there that's as spicy as as ours and because of that we were also as defined the first to do it so when you have all three you've got something that that probably has a very high degree of success that it that it can be successful if you get the message out there and do things the right way if you've got two you have a really good chance of being successful if you've got one you you might have a chance but if if you don't have something you know one of one or two out of those those three first best only I probably wouldn't recommend trying it because great products die on the shelf every single day just because you have an amazing product doesn't mean it's gonna be successful you've also gotta get that trial in a marketplace where grocery stores have you know 30 40 50,000 different skews in this store how are you gonna stand out when the average shopper only goes in and buys the 50 60 things that they always buy it's a weirdly tough category so standing out is is how many of those three things can you get and then how do you get somebody to hear your story and try the product if you can figure those things out you've got you're onto something you know first first only and then hear the story try the product if you do those five you're gonna win yeah totally no that's that makes a lot of sense that makes a lot of sense on the on the spirit side of what's what's the formulation and kind of R&D process look like and how much if at all did you leverage the bars at at at the restaurants to kind of test things out yeah getting into spirits and I will say getting into spirits has been a little bit more fun than the CPG on the cocktail sauce I mean going through the formulation and trying uh 20 different versions of cocktail sauce to get the right flavor not nearly as fun as when I'm able to do that with vodka or whiskey so certainly much more fun project in general but absolutely the best thing that we have I mean the best marketing of any product restaurant business in general is great operations you know and and we have an amazing restaurant operations team we have all stars at every level of our organization on that side so when I'm going in you know complete brutal weird honesty on Barkeep Vodka the the brand that we've launched with recently with our our name of that brand Barkeep Vodka so we we never intended to launch Barkeep Vodka as its own product we took that as a a brand extension and created a brand around the vodka that we created because our bartending staff you know and again these are people that have been doing it for 10 or 15 years they have tried every single vodka ever on the market like hundreds and thousands of different products over a decade career and they they know what's good and they know what's not and with this new innovation from a processing and filtering standpoint they were like this is the cleanest smoothest tasting vodka you almost don't taste vodka when you taste this vodka and they were like we need to create a brand around it everybody on on the ownership side we were literally going into this going we're not going to create anything other than this whiskey brand that we're already doing and cinnamon cocktails and really the brand came out of our our bartenders and service staff going you need to make this available so we can buy it because it's that good so that's kind of where that product came from so yeah we lean heavily on our team on the operate side you know I don't have to taste I mean I'm I enjoy whiskey but I I'm not super passionate about the different flavors and mash bills but I can have somebody on our team try that who's been a whiskey connoisseur and has been tasting it and sampling and trying and and you know just evaluating different whiskeys and he's been doing it for 35 years close to 40 years so we've got the team that will go that's bullshit don't do that you should absolutely do this and so yeah I mean our our team on the back end is absolutely the the kind of the secret sauce that makes everything that we do you know if we try to do something and it's not up to an all star caliber a level they'll call us on it and it'll get shut down not by the ownership group or the management team it'll get shot down by our bartenders if they don't get behind it they're not gonna serve something that's not of the highest quality yeah but I think the cherry vanilla Bourbon was like first spirits product you guys launched was that did that essentially come out of bartenders at your bars that have been already making those and taste great got really good feedback and they were the ones that push should be like you guys if we're thinking about launching a a spirits line this should be the first flavor you want we just get amazing feedback on this one yep that's exactly it it was so where where that product first came out was was about I I was late 2,012 and you know this is when craft cocktails were really starting to take off and people wanted something other than a Manhattan or whatever you know and and the idea of being really creative and coming up with one off cocktails for different restaurants and brands was really taken off and we wanted to to join that but instead of doing it with a vodka or a gin which was commonplace at the time we're like let's do something that's Bourbon that fits kind of the the ambiance and the feel of a classic old school steak joint uh which is what Saint Elmo is and so we were like let's the idea was kind of to do something around there and so our our our lead uh bartender the guy who's our also our Bourbon expert you know he's been you know sipping and evaluating whiskey for you know over three decades uh Carrie was really kind of the driving force on our end for that product and essentially what it is is it's a it's a started off as a four year aged whiskey and then it's uh infused and essentially aged kind of finished with Luxardo cherries at the time and then natural vanilla paste so basically we took those flavors and aged that so it has nice cherry sweetness a natural sweetness from the cherry it's a really good Bourbon that we start with and kind of the smoothness of a vanilla and it really it essentially makes a kind of an adult Cherry Coke if you will and it became our No. 1 selling craft cocktail on that menu so back to your back to the question of is that why we started it was popular yeah it was our No. 1 craft cocktail on the menu and if we're like if we're gonna do a spirits project this is probably the one to try we launched it the first year and our distributor at the time said hey if you do 15 cases in year one it's gonna be a huge success we were closer to 15,000 cases like it was astronomical crazy success rate right out of the gate and then that's given us kind of the ability to take that success and launch a vodka launch a other Saint Omo cocktails you know we've got an Old Fashioned that does really well espresso martini and then you know then take that additional success and then put that into uh you know bar keep vodka and rare Saint Whiskey yeah as you as you guys think about you know the next batch of skews in the spirits line are you starting to think about specific kind of customer data maybe they put a new cocktail on the menu and it's the No. 1 selling cocktail for X months in a row or something along those lines or is it more just kind of anecdotal you kind of make it you know judgment by judgment basis based on just kind of what what the team is feeling in terms of how popular things are in the restaurants and bars I think I think great ideas can come from almost anywhere they can come from bartenders that we talk with outside of our group they can come from internally of someone on our team that knows our capabilities and what our production team is capable of that can be where it originates or starts but I think in general a lot of times it's we're gonna go back to our bartending team and our staff cause they're the ones that are working with customers and you know our patrons and guests in our restaurants on a daily basis and so they get the feedback they know what works they know what doesn't but then we're also looking at you know how can we bring things out that are you know back to that idea kind of a first best only one of the projects that we're working on right now it's not ready yet but it's it's it's essentially gonna be a flavor of of bar keep uh it's bar keep vanilla where that came from is you know our bartenders kind of challenged us they were like can you come up with something better then the vanilla vodka that we're using goes in espresso martinis things like that so it's a very popular and a very well used spirit and and our team said you know can you make something better than anything that's available so it was kind of a challenge and we we went let's give let's give it a shot we leveraged the technology that I mentioned where that this this local group in Indy essentially puts a product under pressure and then that pressure kind of removes the bitterness bite and burn of a product and so we did that not only with the Madagascar vanilla but also with the vodka and it created this vanilla vodka and you'll notice most vanilla vodkas that are on the market they're they're clear which they're clear because they're using a vodka flavoring which is less expensive also doesn't taste as natural as clean usually you have to put a lot more sugar in it we've been told by a group that did the analysis on this that our our vodka has like 30 to 40% fewer calories than a typical vanilla vodka but still has all the sweetness that the other ones have because we don't need that added sugar to mask that bitterness coming from artificial vanilla right so essentially it's put top quality fantastic great ingredients in a bottle try to make something first best only you know if you're not improving on something in retail it's extremely hard space so if you're not doing something to level up what's being done before you like don't even try because you have zero chance of success at that point you've got to do all the things right and you need a few wins and a bit of luck to go along with it but that product we're super excited about that I mean people are trying that we weren't even planning on taking it to retail only for restaurants and the demand has been so much that we're we are building a brand not a brand but building a label and a and retail packaging around that because the demand has been so high so it's exciting so but yeah I think that a long winded answer I think ideas can come from anywhere but you really gotta check all the right boxes if you're gonna actually take it to retail and you know lean on people that are subject matter experts in this case are are bartenders and bar managers yeah when you're taking a new new skew or a product to to retail and you get to that point because you have that great benefit of having all those restaurants and all that anecdotal customer feedback but also data do you use is there any type of those data points from the restaurants and bars that you use when you're pitching retailers and showing hey look how well the sales in our restaurants and bars or here's the feedback or I'm just curious are you able to leverage anything on that front when you guys are going into pitching your retailers to try to get product on the shelf that's a great question initially I think I'm sure we did that you know of I mean Saint Elmo with our cocktail sauce roughly two thirds of our guests order a appetizer the only appetizer on the menu is Saint Elmo Shrimp cocktail and it's famous because of that sauce right so you have arguably the most famous you know single appetizer in an independent restaurant in the US at least that has this tremendous following sales results 2 out of 3 guests is is crazy for any restaurant in terms of how many people actually order an appetizer so yes we used it as a as a kind of a thing to kind of bolster our argument or prop it up but ever since then the the spaces are so different that we don't really use restaurant information for retail and vice versa you know we're really doing we've got a team that's solely dedicated on developing and and creating the best restaurant items we possibly can ever create and we've got a retail team that very frequently is going alright this team of you know 200+ people in culinary who are constantly looking for innovation and and creating this new product new flavor new dish new item we're going out of all of those things that all of these massively talented people are creating what are the best that rise to the top and then that's what we're taking to retail and not necessarily using the data to back it up we just want a shot at you know put us on the shelf and and let us prove to you that this is gonna work we have the confidence but a buyer's not gonna probably look at restaurant data and really take much credit or stock in that now when we're winning with HEB out in Texas with a cocktail sauce when somebody's gonna say hey you guys are a local you know regional brand you'll never survive outside we can go hey we're four states away in the south in a market that that is vastly different and very far from Indianapolis and we're we're winning at a at a pretty high level there's no reason why we can't do that on the East Coast in the south down in Florida you know so data within an industry will help influence and steer decisions within that same industry but I don't know that there's a ton of crossover there is for us in terms of evaluation and product creation but that data won't necessarily help you I think with a specific buyer yeah I I spoke with someone a while ago who runs sales and marketing for a pretty big produce company I think they're like one of the biggest mushroom growers in the country and he was talking about how he views the food service channel from their side of things as he called it kind of a brand building flywheel meaning customers that try the product in a food service environment then go looking looking forward to retail and vice versa do you guys find that to to to a certain a certain extent or you guys based on what you're saying do you do you see things as as as pretty separate no I think we're you know the retail side wants to support the restaurant side by you know innovating and giving them products on especially on the spirit side that help them do their jobs better and then there are the restaurants were a tremendous advocate to us on you know on Cherry Vanilla Bourbon you know that product had been served and raved about and enjoyed on our menus for 10 years before it was ever taken to retail you know we're close to 10 years and and so there's there's a huge benefit to getting trial again you know I I guess going back to the idea of first best only you know Cherry Vanilla Bourbon was first best only which is great but unless you have people that try the product and hear the story you're never gonna be truly successful you've got to have all of those components and that was something where we had a ton of trial on it and the same thing's happening on on bar keep vodka rare Saint people are seeing the quality that we're putting in that bottle we don't compromise we do the hard things we pay more for ingredients you know we're doing everything right to be successful and make sure that anything that we put in a bottle matches the expectation of what we serve in our restaurants so they know we're not cutting corners and that that helps give a presence and an understanding that we're putting things out there that are you know the best quality product we can put in a bottle and and we're more concerned about that than we ever are on price one of the jokes that I think we we say in the restaurant world a little bit on our world on our end is the experience will be remembered long after the price is forgotten you know and so when we're doing things on the spirit side is to make sure that we're we're kind of backing that up quality doing things the right way come first and alright now is this a viable product does this fit into the marketplace from a cost standpoint what does the packaging look like how do we bring this to life but it has to start with with the quality and if we do that we know our teams and the restaurants are gonna get behind it and simply by that happening we know we're gonna get trial we know we're gonna get people telling our story about this new vodka uh you know barkeep about this new whiskey that we're doing and they're gonna be pushing it because they're excited and a lot of times they're a part of the origination of that idea you were forecasting 15 cases of that and that year one he ended up shipping 15,000 the key to such explosive growth I think I think the learnings were you know it really if I go back to why it was successful is it's just it was the most popular craft cocktail on the menu for a decade you know over a decade and and that that uh that was really a a huge driver of that of that success you know not quite a decade you know 2,012 I think is when we launched it and we launched the product in retail in 2,019 right so you've got about seven or eight years of trial on a product before we took it to retail that's why it it crushed because so many people already knew what it was so when they saw it on the shelf they just went oh I love that in the restaurant you know I'm paying 14 bucks for a drink yeah I'm gonna pay 30 bucks so I can have 10 drinks at my house it was a natural transition for that product and and it really was successful same thing with our steak seasoning you know our our grills a typical grill a grill guy and or gal in our restaurant you know that Grill Chef is they're serving literally millions of steaks in their career and this is the seasoning that they're putting in on on every steak and so they've we vetted the process if there was a better uh if there was a better seasoning that was gonna be more receptive and more positively received by our guests in the last over 100 years we would have changed it and we we have changed it a few times definitely over the years but we've found something that people absolutely love and it's just taking that thing that's being successful and finding a way to position that in into a different space which is retail yeah what what in that first year to where you had this explosive growth which one did you guys launch with initially yeah I guess I'd I'd answer that as and I think this is probably you know CPG is a weird space right now with consumer packaged goods in the food industry is a weird space because you've got so many brands that are pulling back innovation is kind of leaning into health space and and things like that people are consuming products differently I think the large conglomerates that historically have dominated in that industry are you know their stock prices getting beaten up because there's a lot of innovation that's kind of taking you know their their lunch and so when you start out I think your your best bet is to start in a place where you can win and you need somebody to to share that story so what I would recommend is start with smaller groups whether it's mom and pop butcher shops you know if it's a seasoning or product like that you want to be on the perimeter because if if there's you know 5,000 different seasoning bottles and you're one of those seasoning bottles you're probably gonna get lost so you know build a relationship with the meat you know the the meat manager of that store and find a way to get a rack on the the meat counter you know those things were were very helpful when we launched our seasoning but same thing on cocktail sauce start small and and make sure anybody that you partner with you bust your ass to to add value to what they're doing and you're not just cool we got this sale let's move on it it is truly a partnership you know our sales people we don't typically refer to them as sales people I mean they're they're partnership managers they're managing relationships and they're coming to it with the approach of wanting to add value to anybody that that we're fortunate enough for them to lend us some space and we're going to bust our tail to add value and make sure that we never ask them to do anything that's not in their best interest and simply that approach start small make sure anyway anywhere you go you win that's that's given us the credibility that you know when when we launched with Costco we had enough sales that it was just throwing gasoline on the fire because we had the reputation of of doing things the right way and kind of building our brand through just great partners all along the way and making sure they win first and and we put our needs second yeah yeah the product lines between the sauces the the spices the spirits you had to I think you had to pitch and manage multiple different buyers for each category I knew you spoken about this on another podcast I think so we can keep this one fairly brief but just maybe at a high level what's what's been your strategy for managing such a complex web of of stakeholders yeah we have probably the the dumbest route to market possible in terms of the products that we create we it started with cocktail sauce and even that in itself a group might be you know tell you we're gonna put you in the dairy department which is a horrible idea for us and we fight that wherever we can we actually tell groups no now because nobody looks for cocktail sauce in the dairy department we could have even multiple products on that one product right so we're we might be the meat buyer we might be the seafood buyer we might be dairy we're general grocery on on seasoning we're upwards of two possibly three or four different buyers on our other sauces then we get into alcohol which is a whole separate buyer I mean we're dealing with even within one grocery store one grocery chain we might be dealing with 4 5 different buyers which is hard you know typically what you see in retail is somebody develops a relationship with that one specific buyer and you develop a report of how to win not only with that person and with that brand but you get recognition for people that shop in that same area and are familiar with your products we're going hey we've got this amazing cocktail sauce try our seasoning you know totally different products totally different potentially consumers somebody might love our seasoning but they don't drink alcohol or vice versa so it's a hard way to go about it it's been the right way for us because we've always taken the approach that we're not trying to put our name on Saint Malo you know yogurt or something you know I I always joke that I I with with Craig I was like man why couldn't you have been famous for granola or yogurt like something that people consume every day but it's cocktail sauce when a great customer you only buy three or four bottles in a whole year so but the reality is is we chose in that path deliberately and intentionally because these are the things that allow us to reduce mistakes and and also not cheapen or lessen Saint Elmo's brand by trying to put our name on something that we don't have a unique story behind it's not something that we created it's not just a good product that we slap our name on there's a story behind it there's a reason we do it and it's something that we we've built up some some integrity on making sure that we only launch products that are something that we we take pride in it's something that we created and we're known for and our customers want us to create these products for retail that's been really the way that that we've been able to push these products out and be successful on virtually just about everything we've taken out you know we've launched we've been successful on because we've been diligent and and stay true to the fact to only put out items that our customers love and that way we can reduce the the risk and liability of of new items yep tools you found you and your team have found to be most impactful just in terms of really driving as much velocity as possible at retail and these could be things you like are really doubt a demo strategy sampling maybe like shelf talkers aisle violators retail media stuff like what getting people to try the product for the first time that is the hardest thing to do you know I mean just think about it focus group of one I've never thought about it in these terms but knowing what I know about grocery stores and you know if you go into a Meijer there's 50,000 products in that store I've probably tried a couple hundred you know like there's so many different items out there so getting somebody to try something for the first time is incredibly difficult that's the hardest thing if you have a great product and people try it they're probably gonna buy it like you win so getting people to try about the try the product hear the story share that with others that that is 100% has to be the the the main priority of any sales and marketing team that that's trying to win in this space other things you can do to get that trial like I think is another thing um that you want to try to focus on one of the first email blasts or the first successful marketing tools that we did for the cocktail sauce when we launched and we've got a pretty robust and large email database from our you know reservations over the years of the restaurant so you know I pushed an email blast it probably went out to 30 or 40,000 people and I think maybe at the time we had probably had about 150 200 cases in inventory it was our first run small run so the email blast I put out it and and it was when we first launched it online the subject line of the email blast said warning from Saint Anne's Steakhouse I knew it this like the word clickbait hadn't even been invented at this time but it was totally clickbait you know like somebody's like what did I get did I eat a bad steak you know like I knew the open rate was going to be astronomically high and it was we had like 2,000 orders within the first like 24 hours we actually had to shut off orders cause we're like we're we're a month maybe longer out on production and being able to fulfill these orders based on how many were coming in so we created a problem that we had to fix ourselves and be honest with customers and go hey we we didn't think this was gonna be this successful but we'll let you know as soon as it's back in stock and your order's gonna ship as absolutely fast as possible but that's a long way to answer the question which is how do you get people to try the product for the first time you've got to get their attention that could be done with shelf talkers that could be done with violator shelf violators you could do it through digital marketing and and kind of wow factor marketing you know liquid death is is kicking ass in the space I mean they're selling four dollar bottles of you know four dollar cans of water I don't know what they know their margin is on a can of water but it's gotta be really good when you're selling it for $4 so they can invest that into unbelievably creative talented people that that push out this badass marketing and it's fun you know and I've I've listened to them kind of speak on the topic a little bit and it's like if your marketing and advertising isn't something that somebody's willing to share with somebody else like it needs to be good enough that somebody would would consider watching it if they had to pay for a subscription to watch it that's the approach that they take so which is crazy we're not to that level I don't know I don't think we'll ever be at that level um but that's what you've got to do you've got to do whatever you can to get people's attention thankfully for us we we launched with a cocktail sauce that people love sharing with other people so if I can get one person to buy that bottle for the first time they're probably taking it to a holiday party cook out whatever so it's a natural try vehicle to go back to challenge No. 1 which is get people to try the product hear the story we've got that kind of built into our products because of the way the majority of them are consumed so that that's been a huge benefit to us it hurts from the standpoint that nobody's consuming our products they buy a bottle and they consume it you know in a day certainly we hope they're not doing that and on the spirit side you know somebody buys a bottle of San Antonio seasoning that might last somebody six months and that's okay you know but it's a more shareable product that way which helps us get faster customers so even though we don't have the turns of like a yogurt brand or you know some snack brand it's okay because we have a lot more customers that kind of know who we are um and and our breadth is gonna be better than our depth within you know customers purchasing decisions yeah any a brands or just say general trends across CPG in general that caught your eye or when you've gotten particularly excited about lately at all um I don't know I I I love seeing other brands win you know like I said I think what liquid death is doing I think is cool um recycling cans is I don't know it's it's kind of a cool thing I I think their their positioning is you know everybody told them they were idiots and here they are dominating at at a super high level and and maybe changing the planet a little bit in the process so I think products that any any new product very often not any new product but very often new products that win are products that somebody had a problem themselves or they identified a problem sought out to fix it and make a difference and changed that everybody said they were crazy they figured out how to do it and then they were exponentially and hugely successful so whether that's healthy products I mean I'm you know I'm I'm here selling you know whiskey and and and vodka and red meat with a lot of my products Seafood's healthy for you but you know I I see a big trend into healthy foods I mean one of the best ways people or one of the ways we hear people talk about our seasoning very often is they're putting it on vegetables and things that you know I'm they're trying to eat a little bit healthier and it's it's a lower sodium product so I think you've seen that with Dan O's really pushing low sodium has been successful for them I think it it products that go lean into what newer customers want because if if your customers are you're going after all customers that are 60 by the time you dominate that category and it takes you 10 years to do that you're starting to lose customers unfortunately right so if you can go figure out what that next wave of customers want and develop products that they're going to enjoy and you can be profitable and successful with them you might have a customer for 30 or 40 or 60 years so that is I think what what I would be trying to position for are things that you know newer customers are looking for you know on the vodka side that's one of the things that we're excited about is we believe and we've got the scientific data um from from our scientist friend to back it up that this is the cleanest vodka that's ever been made and he's got you know he can share the graphs to prove that so it is as far as vodka goes it's it's a little bit cleaner than than maybe the vodka you're drinking now so I think products that are maybe a little bit innovative healthy things like that though those are that's what I think you wanna uh try to look for so that that's what I'm seeing but I think it's companies that are that are having fun serving in need that somebody else has identified or they've identified and and having fun doing it that that's typically who's gonna win I totally agree with that I think that makes a lot of sense yeah I mean this is this has been great super insightful what's the best place for people to follow along with with you and then I know there's a bunch of different brands on the huge umbrella what's I don't know what's the best way to follow along with the ones you maybe want to call out let's say yeah I the only just about the only social media I consume and interact and engage with is on LinkedIn so that's where you're gonna find me um so just search for me on there and and if anybody has a question or wants to dive deeper I'm a nerd for all of this stuff I love talking about it so happy to engage there our brands just you know search Barkeep Vodka search Rare Saint find it there we're we're fairly active on all our social media channels but uh but yeah just the easiest thing is is search and it'll wherever you want to consume that media you can find a little bit about us and that story and the the majority of our products you can buy online bar keep vodka and rare Saint Whiskey we we don't have that online just the complexities of shipping alcohol is extremely weird and difficult so we expect to at some point but all of our other products including Cherry Vanilla Bourbon and all of our retail products you can buy and find from Saint emmas.com so perfect awesome bro this is a great appreciate the time I think that's the yeah thanks it's fun I love talking about this stuff it's easy to to sound like you've done some things smart when you only say the smart things you've done over a a 17 year career and you avoid the the 10 times the amount of the mistakes that I've done over that period so for sure totally yeah I appreciate I appreciate the conversation yeah likewise awesome thanks brim yeah there are I mean in terms of developing these first few spirit skews is it safe to assume I you can correct me if I'm wrong what what did you feel like was the what retailers did you decide to target first in that as you guys expanded the what are some of just the the tools or yeah I think the the most impactful is like I said earlier last last question for you Brin