
Shelf Help: The Tactical CPG Podcast
If you’ve ever thought, "Why doesn’t anyone talk about this in CPG?", this is the podcast for you. Host, Adam Steinberg, co-founder of KitPrint, interviews CPG leaders to uncover the real-world tactics, strategies, and behind-the-scenes insights that really move the needle.
Shelf Help: The Tactical CPG Podcast
Tara Foster - The COO Playbook for Scaling from Zero to Nine Figures
On this episode, we’re joined by Tara Foster, the COO of Evergreen (a better-for-you waffle brand), and the former COO of nutpods.
Tara was part of the founding team at nutpods, where she helped scale the plant-based creamer brand to a nine-figure run rate and the #2 brand in the category.
With over a decade of experience across ingredient sourcing, supply chain strategy, and operational leadership, Tara brings a wealth of knowledge to the table.
Tara dives into her co-manufacturing playbook. From evaluating partners and negotiating agreements to scaling production without losing control, she unpacks what most brands get wrong about COGS, how to manage risk through supplier redundancy, how ops teams evolve as brands scale, what she learned from bumpier moments like warehouse moves and formulation changes, and why continuous improvement is key.
Episode Highlights:
🥥 Scaling nutpods to a nine-figure brand
🏭 What to look for in a great co-manufacturer
⚠️ “Take or pay” clauses and how to avoid them
🚚 Hidden costs that destroy your margin
📦 Packaging decisions that drive retail success
📉 Redundancy and de-risking the supply chain
📊 Forecasting COGS with real-world benchmarks
🚀 When it does make sense to vertically integrate
👥 Hiring your first ops lead vs. building a full team
Table of Contents:
00:00 – Intro & Evergreen Overview
02:00 – Early nutpods Journey & Co-Man Lessons
06:00 – How to Source and Pitch a Co-Packer
10:00 – Scaling, Formulation Shifts, and Loss of Control
14:00 – Supplier Redundancy & Risk Mitigation
18:00 – COGS, Margins & Avoiding Common Pitfalls
21:00 – New Product Launch Best Practices
24:00 – Packaging for Efficiency vs. Shelf Appeal
28:00 – COO Role Evolution from Startup to Scale
33:00 – Trends Tara’s Watching in CPG
34:00 – Where to Follow Tara & Evergreen
Links:
Evergreen – https://www.eatevergreen.com
Follow Tara on LinkedIn – Tara Foster
Follow me on LinkedIn – Adam Steinberg
Check out https://www.kitprint.co/ for CPG production design support.
Adam Steinberg (00:00)
All right. Welcome to Shelf Help. Today we're speaking with Tara Foster, who is joining us from Denver. And Tara's currently, recently joined Evergreen, a Better For You waffle brand, which we'll talk about here in just a second, where she came on board as the COO. Before joining Evergreen, Tara spent about a decade in the ingredient space before joining the Nutpods team in the early days where she helped build the brand into
I believe the number two in the plant-based creamer category, which is quite a feat. So excited to get into it. So yeah, first off for the listeners Tara maybe just for the ones that aren't as familiar with Evergreen give us just a quick lay of the land in terms of origin story, why behind the brand, core products you guys currently offer, and maybe just a few places that people can their hands on them.
Tara Foster (00:49)
Yeah, definitely. So it's a frozen waffle company or frozen breakfast, guess is what we would say. But all of the more in the better for you category with real ingredients like eggs, avocado oil, no seed oils, but also hidden veggies, which is kind of really the core of the product. And Emily Gruden founded the company about five years ago, really just cooking, wanted to cook something nutritious and healthy for her kids in the kitchen. And it became super popular with
her friends and eventually launched the company. So you can find it Sprouts, Whole Foods, we're getting ready to launch in Kroger, we just launched in Target, so lots of different places.
Adam Steinberg (01:27)
Awesome.
well, yeah, talking about
your Nutpods pod days,
scaling from what I believe was at the very early days when you joined into that number two spot in that plant based creamer category. And what I imagined was the nine figure run rate, if not even more. So I feel like it's
probably safe to assume the supply chain definitely evolved quite a bit. So I'm just kind of curious, maybe just to start off,
what did the supply chain look like in year one versus,
year 10 when that last year you were there? And
what were some of the biggest
supply chain unlocks along the way, let's say?
Tara Foster (01:58)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, so I did, I started on the founding team, literally, the founder, Madeline Hayden had a formula that she made in the blender in her kitchen. And so it was really, I mean, it was even a year and a half before we had finished product to sell in market, because there's a whole bunch of scale up and product testing to do. But it was a really small founding team, there was really like five people on the founding team. So we everybody had to do a lot of different things at the beginning. But I think
some of the things that were important was, you know, at the beginning stage, like everybody wearing a lot of hats, everybody doing things, being very tactical, and then also finding the right co-man. Us owning our and we owned our ingredient. We really owned our supply chain as far as our ingredients and packaging from the start, which gave us a lot of control and ability to scale easy and know, you know,
utilize our relationships with those initial suppliers and leverage them later on down the road.
Adam Steinberg (02:53)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
owning those ingredients from the get-go seems like there can be a lot of value there for sure
thinking back at what point,
did things start to break where you had to make some big adjustments? Like what were those different stages where you're like, okay, this is not working anymore. We got to pivot or fix this?
Tara Foster (03:09)
I mean, early on, mean, comans are the thing that is always the area where there could be issues. And so for us, it was finding a new coman. literally, at a time, we were in an industry where the capacity is tight on, it was considered low acid aseptic. we actually had to move out of one coman because they
Adam Steinberg (03:17)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (03:32)
had gotten too busy and we had to find another one very quickly. We had three months to do it and make that happen. So I'd say, you know, balancing scaling at a Comian was a big deal. And also going into, we went into a refrigerated format later on, we started out pretty simple and in shelf stable products, everything was simple. Supply chain was simple, shipping was simple. And then going to a refrigerated product, a different Comian, the
Formula doesn't always translate the same, so you've got to make adjustments and then just being able to do consolidated refrigerated shipping and make it make sense financially was definitely a big challenge and a big change.
Adam Steinberg (04:06)
Yeah.
you touched on co-packers a bit. what's the best way to go about sourcing a co-packer and looking at the different options?
it seems like depending on the brands that you speak with, some have more challenges than others, just in terms of getting a co-packer's attention, getting them to actually commit the time and working with them on those small initial runs, cetera. So yeah, maybe just to start like, what's the best way to.
Tara Foster (04:20)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Steinberg (04:28)
to go about sourcing co-packer options in general. It doesn't seem like, you know, they market themselves super well. You know, it's not the easiest to find like a list of co-packers. So what's the best way to find.
Tara Foster (04:30)
Yeah.
Totally.
I mean, yeah, it's just, can't just easily Google it and it's still, even if you can find them, it's also still an area where you almost have to have an introduction, right? Like you need to be vouched for that you're somebody who's not just going to waste their time. ⁓ and it also depends on what type of coman your co packer you're looking for. is it dry blending, which is a lot easier. There's a lot more available than something like a beverage. so how complex it is matters, but I mean,
Adam Steinberg (04:51)
Yeah.
Sure.
Tara Foster (05:04)
The biggest thing is asking people in the industry, everybody you know, like asking people that already do that. And you'd be surprised how many brands, even though, you know, you might be in some ways, potentially a competitor, people still share knowledge and share information because there's room for everybody. So just ask people, you know, I do think, you know, key chains getting a little bit better with, you know, some of the commands going on there, but it's not comprehensive, but it is, you know, something that's there. can also
Adam Steinberg (05:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (05:29)
hire an agency like JPG resources or hire a consultant and they'll do kind of an initial for I mean, it's kind of expensive, you know, in the 10 to 20, I guess 10 to 30 range, 30k range, depending on what you're doing. But those are some ways but I think really just asking everybody you know, and making those phone calls is the best way to do it and getting somebody to intro you is how you're going to be able to because I think the second part of your question was, how do get them to pay attention if you're little? Because that's the hard the next step, right? You might be able to find about how do you get them?
Adam Steinberg (05:52)
Exactly, yeah.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (05:59)
Getting them, you treat them as kind of how you do pitches to investors really, in my opinion, is you show them your plan, you get them excited about the brand, the why behind the brand and what your plans are and just really get them hyped up about the brand. And then, I mean, the other thing too is a lot of times the packaging or equipment suppliers you can get engaged with and they also want to try to funnel or support like Tetra Pak or SIG, like in the beverage world, those two companies will help support.
Adam Steinberg (06:03)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (06:28)
and funnel you to the right commands or help you kind of get in there and do those startup runs. So really just making them interested in your product and pitching to them.
Adam Steinberg (06:37)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes sense. okay. So you've got, let's just say use key chain or, you know, get referrals or whatnot. You've got a list of a few co-packers that you feel like could be a potential fit. What should that evaluation checklist look like and what factors do you feel like are really the most important to consider?
Tara Foster (06:59)
I mean, just, I think at the beginning you're just, want a co-packer, but you really need to find out what is their scalability, right? Cause you could go in deep and realize, you know, they don't really have a lot of room for growth or they don't have, you know, the ability to expand. They're not working on putting in the next line in their facility. So asking those kinds of questions about what their growth plans are. And really just, you know, do they have a quality mindset? So you have to be at the plant, you have to visit the plant.
see how, you know, when you're doing the tour with the business team or the plant manager, are they interacting with the team there? Like, does it seem like it's a quality mindset? they, I mean, it sounds silly, but one of the best indicators is the person you're doing the tour with, they, are they on the lookout for stuff? Do they pick up a piece of trash or step over it when they go through the plant? You know, just little things like that. But I think capacity and quality are kind of two of the biggest factors for sure.
Adam Steinberg (07:53)
Yeah, capacity and quality certainly make sense. So you found the co-packer you like. You're getting to the point where you're going to start putting things on paper and getting towards an agreement. What are, feels like the most important things to include in that co-packer agreement to just, guess, ensure success and minimize risks from the get-go and just kind of setting, making sure expectations are aligned from the get-go, let's say.
Tara Foster (07:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and early stages, it's like you feel like, I don't have a lot of leverage, which you may not, but just, I, it's really more about understanding your risk and what you're signing up for. you know, capacity commitment, you don't, sometimes you don't even know how much you need, right? But you want to make sure you have some. is it.
I think trying to put something in that gives you some coverage of capacity with whatever it is that you know and a mechanism for growth and then also making sure that there's no take or pay, right? Like a lot of times manufacturers want to put that in there and that's just something you could, should avoid that at all costs, especially at the beginning. think under making sure you understand the loss factor they're using and that's in there and, and you know, if they go over that or they.
compensating you for that, if you're supplying ingredients, right? Like that's really important. What is the mechanism they can raise prices, right? So are they using some type of index and what is that and understanding that there's a cadence for that and it's not just random three months from now we can raise your price because I think that's something that happens a lot of the times is you go in and you go to manufacture something and then they're like, after three times we find that this is too hard to run in the style or it doesn't run as fast as we thought and they want to change your price. So just.
really understanding those pieces so that you can plan for those. Because you might not always be able to solve it and sometimes you just need to get in and manufacture, but understanding the components and the levers is important.
Adam Steinberg (09:40)
Yeah.
When you say take or pay, is that essentially once the co-packers done producing a run, they won't store it for very long, If you don't pick it up in time, then they're going to pay you. Is that what you mean by that?
Tara Foster (09:50)
No, I mean, if you want a capacity commitment, you have to pay for that regardless if you need it. You know what I mean? So like, I want a million cases a year. Well, okay, you're going to pay for a million cases a year, whether or not, you know, you need you need them, basically.
Adam Steinberg (09:55)
⁓ got it. OK, that's even worse. Got it. OK. Right.
Yeah, got
Certainly makes sense. for brands that are, that, that have the start out self manufacturing, whether it's, you know, starting in your kitchen, then maybe they shift to
a shared commercial kitchen where they're sharing some space or whatnot. What's the most challenging part for those brands when they get to the point they're about to transition to a co packer. I'm talking about things like formulation changes that you have to change, for scale or.
Tara Foster (10:29)
Okay.
Adam Steinberg (10:30)
you know, much higher moqs or whatnot. yeah, what's, what's most challenging part of making that transition?
Tara Foster (10:36)
I think it's just well, in general, a loss of control. So right when you're in your own facility, you can decide like moq is a good one, right? I can only run I can run a small amount or they don't care if they have to take time to do an allergen clean. So so really lining up your production so that it best suits the manufacturer's line, they might not be able to cut in on an allergen every other week, you know, might be once a month. So really understanding those points and
Adam Steinberg (10:56)
Sure.
Tara Foster (11:02)
And also, you know, the variability, right? So even going from different comans, you know, regardless of whether it's in your plant first or a coman, you still will have some variability and understanding your tolerance for that and, you know, ways you can kind of mitigate that ⁓ is really, I think that's something that's going to come up for sure.
Adam Steinberg (11:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that totally makes sense. And then
on
the other side, a kind of an opposite scenario, a brand's been working with a co-packer for a while. And then, you know, at some point they feel like they've gotten to a certain scale, have the capital, they can,
get the financing or whatever where it makes sense to, to, actually go the other way and vertically integrate and start,
looking at bringing manufacturing in-house if they have the money to build out a facility and whatnot. Like,
When does that you feel like it usually makes sense to start looking at that? And then when it does make sense, is there kind of like a step-by-step process you go through where maybe you start just sourcing your ingredients first, then you're setting up the co-packer and then maybe you start producing,
part of your SKUs in-house, you're still keeping the other co-packer. I know it's kind of a multi-part question, but I'll stop there.
Tara Foster (12:00)
⁓
I do think there's probably times where it makes sense. It depends on how complicated your manufacturing is. For example, we never wanted to do that because, first of all, to put in an aseptic plant, it's probably $50 million. So the barrier to entry, the cost is too expensive. But if you're doing something like a dry pad or if you're doing something that is a trail mix, something like that, it might be
easier to get that up and running. But I do agree with you should anticipate that it's number one, going to take longer to get, get it up and running and consistency. So you should not, you should not plan on just having a hard deadline of getting out of your co-man, right? Like just keeping them up and running until you're sure as long as you can kind of afford that, in your process. But I also think like people really need to make sure they run all the numbers before they want to bring in their own manufacturing because
Adam Steinberg (12:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Foster (12:54)
It's just a different business to manufacture than sell. so, you know, that line time, you know, making it, are you really as utilizing as much as you thought you were going to utilize? And just having that food safety, you're responsible for all of that, right on your own. So make sure that you have the right team in place and that the numbers really do make sense in the bigger scheme of things.
Adam Steinberg (13:09)
Yeah.
Right. I mean, it's a lot less complicated to just have a co-packer and there's one line item and say, I get the product and it cost me this much versus doing everything yourself for sure.
it's definitely a more complicated.
Tara Foster (13:27)
Yeah. I, I, I wonder like, you know, maybe in the initial stages, maybe it's just better to find more ways to improve costs and collaborate with your co-man, you know, and give them a part of the savings to be incentivized to help you automate more or figure out more things to make the costs go down.
Adam Steinberg (13:37)
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
taking a step back from co-packers specifically, just talking about suppliers and partners in general, especially with,
Tara Foster (13:52)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Steinberg (13:54)
the tariff situation, everything going on in the world right now. Like how important would you say is redundancy and supplier diversity, let's say.
Tara Foster (13:56)
you
Yeah.
I it's critical. so it's not stuff so ever since, you know, basically the pandemic forward, there's been something almost every, you know, year or 18 months where just another panic mode and we're almost numb in the supply chain at this point. But I think 100%, especially for key ingredients, every ingredient, if you can, you need to have redundancy and commands you need to have redundancy. And I think for key ingredients, it needs to be
You know, I'm giving, have two that I'm running a parallel. So there's different levels, right? Like you could have somebody approved, but you don't necessarily order from them, but you know, they're a solution. But then for key ingredients that, that are critical to your product, 80 have an 80, 20 % rule. Like one is at 80, one is at 20%. So you keep them going. Same with comans. And then I think it's also even having like a third supplier, like it's, if you have the time and ability to, to.
Adam Steinberg (14:38)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (15:00)
qualify different suppliers, like having a third one in the mix too. It's not only just for like supply chain issues. It's for if you're managing your own ingredients, having the ability to do an RFP when you scale. mean, it might sound like it's not a big deal at the beginning, but like once you start getting into the, you know, 50 million range, you've got some decent volumes, you know, and, and, and you can do RFPs and you can find cost savings that you didn't in the early days.
Adam Steinberg (15:26)
Yeah. On the the co-packer side specifically talking about having an redundancy and if you, and I'm not sure maybe you would just say that I don't recommend this in general, but versus having just one
approved that you know you can pivot too quickly versus maybe you're actually producing with two co-packers at the same time at an ongoing basis, just for diversity and
any other reasons that might feel important. How do you, is it, I assume it's a challenge or maybe it's not, if it is like, how do you ensure.
Tara Foster (15:44)
huh.
Adam Steinberg (15:51)
If you're having the same co packer producing the same skews to ensure there's product consistency across the different co packers?
Tara Foster (15:59)
Mm hmm. I mean, number one is you should be getting samples of your runs every time you should be the last person that looks at that product before this is not everybody does this, but I do think you should be the last person who looks at the product before it goes to a consumer. Because, you know, not necessarily from a food safety standpoint, but although that's important, I think it's more of those soft things like the quality standpoint or the sensory.
that you know your product better than anybody else and you know the tolerance that you have. And if you're not maintaining that over time and watching it, it could drift. So I think that's the biggest way and through trials. Yeah, but
Adam Steinberg (16:31)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (16:35)
you're you're basically having a positive release program in house where you can still have product go to your distribution center or your in house or your third party, you know, three PL location, but you have them hold it until you've said, we've reviewed this product and we're good to go.
Adam Steinberg (16:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Talking about supplier diversity,
what does that supplier diversity actually look like? it, is it just having a few backups or is it more strategic like
maybe one ingredient supplier sourcing majority of their stuff from, you know, I don't know, Southeast Asia, but
maybe that area is prone to
typhoon risk or something like that. it also like, is it beyond just having a backup? Is it more strategic, like different parts of the world or like what other variables should you take into account?
Tara Foster (17:12)
Yes.
Definitely geographic diversity is important. So things like coconut, you know, if you're sourcing that, just make sure that you're using a different region. It's not just, I mean, things can happen in a region, you know, like typhoons, it could be weather, but it can also be just container shipments. Maybe there's a port that's an issue as simple as that. it could, I mean, that could cause you, you know, weeks of delay that you don't have.
I mean, it's not always possible for everything, but it could also be helpful to have that geographic diversity because costs, Like, so, you know, oats are maybe made in Canada, they're made in the US, but maybe Canada had really bad weather that season and it's not so bad in the US where it's grown. I'm not, I'm just throwing that out there, but just different ways that cost impacts things as well. do think it is having multiple, but also geographic diversity is important in your thought process when you're
picking alternate suppliers.
Adam Steinberg (18:08)
Yeah, totally.
talking about COGS and margins for a second. Where would you say
most brands go wrong when it comes to forecasting COGS and margins?
Tara Foster (18:19)
I just think not thinking about everything and just understanding. mean, I freight is a big area where people don't always understand all the extra costs that are there and factor in for that. So fuel surcharges, lump or charge, know, they, different customers make you unload it. Like you just have all these different fees that kind of come in after the fact and you didn't account for it. So it just balloons your cost.
I think warehousing and carrying too much inventory, right? Like not having that balance right. That can stack up really fast, having stuff in storage or having stuff, not understanding, you know, how much you need to have on hand and then having some go to shelf life, depending on how short your shelf life is. And you've got to either donate that or kind of sell it to a grocery outlet type thing. These things all like start to add up on the backend. I think going back to the loss factor too, understanding, you know,
what the potential loss factor is if you're supplying your own materials. That's an area too. So it's all these like kind of hidden back things that happen after the fact that are harder to account for.
Adam Steinberg (19:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
what
is the most common way
that,
things can kind of get away from you from a margin and cog standpoint?
Tara Foster (19:30)
I I think it's asking, know, trying to get benchmarks, right? So I, that's one of the things I think since the pandemic that people have kind of leaned more into like having discussions with other companies and their supply chain teams, like we would do that all the time. Just understanding what's going on in the market, understanding what costs should be, what is your percent of sales for freight? What is your percent of sales for warehousing? What is your, you know,
product margin targets, right? So seeing what is other people are doing. So you have industry benchmarks and then also maybe putting in a plus or minus, know, like a, you know, kind of a worst case scenario, you have just having that and adding in, you know, X percent to that in case you're missing anything and knowing that you're still okay if you're at that level. and I think
Adam Steinberg (20:17)
Sure. Yeah.
Tara Foster (20:22)
Having a continuous improvement mindset like cost savings, you can't wait until down the road. You have to keep every year I think the most important thing is going okay is what is the lowest hanging fruit for us right now? What could we look at? And not just trying to wait until it's a bad situation to try to create a path to profitability, right? It's doing it all along the way. It's these little things that you do along the way just like, you know, working out every day. It's like it adds up over time.
Adam Steinberg (20:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's not something you do once and set it and forget it. It's something you have to keep being diligent around. Yeah, totally. In terms of new product development and introducing new products and new SKUs into the supply chain and the ecosystem, what would you say you have found or some of the keys to a successful new product launch in terms of one, like hitting your budget?
Tara Foster (20:52)
Right.
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Adam Steinberg (21:14)
And then
also actually hitting your launch timeline goals? Cause I know that's one of the most common thing is,
hitting the actual launch you had in mind initially for a new product launch is not the easiest thing to hit.
Tara Foster (21:24)
Definitely. And it takes longer than people think, right? You know, I mean, it could take a year to launch a new product if you do it did everything right. And so I think the biggest thing is having a tool that tracks, you know, the what are the what are the tasks that need to be accomplished and who's accountable for them. I mean, it doesn't have to be an expensive tool. Asana worked perfectly well for this. It's it's a great tool for this and managing to that. And what is, you know,
the worst case scenario that can happen. And I think how you determine that worst case scenario mapping everything out is you get your team together. Even sales like right when you're developing a product, every somebody who's in each department and then you beat it up like what could be a problem with this? you know, what are what do we think could go wrong? Like really like having those worst case scenario discussions so that you plan for it and
You just can't take your foot off the gas. is something where every week you have to be checking in, where are we with this? What's happening? Because time is your enemy in a product launch and it just goes faster than you think.
Adam Steinberg (22:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. That's definitely what I've found too.
And then
from
an operations side of things specifically, how do you think about introducing new products
you know, production line scheduling and all those things and how to think about, I need to allocate, are you adding time to the production line or are you pulling some away?
Tara Foster (22:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think I honestly think it's is probably like another another thing to think about when you're going into looking at commands. What other capabilities do they have? Like where do you see your brand growing? Like if it's a bottling plant, what size packages can they do? Because it's always different. What lids can they do? So really like knowing that upfront and starting like to think about it and then engaging with your
Adam Steinberg (22:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (23:10)
your whole team, your sales team, when you do your innovation planning, like, okay, what are all options that are current comans? So we could maximize our volume there. And then if you need to go somewhere else, that's fine. But you like at least try to maximize what you can and get the most economies of scale with your current coman. I think if you do some of that thinking upfront, also just understanding, are you putting allergens into something, you know, cause a lot of times you can, you know, with your MOQs, can kind of usually run two or three.
Adam Steinberg (23:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (23:40)
flavors or products per shift and how would that fit in there? there different allergens? How could you run them and lay them out in production to make it efficient? Have that conversation with your co-man because they're usually more than willing to engage in that kind of discussion and understand how things could be done more efficiently. But at the end of the day, you do want to try to optimize where you can, but
Adam Steinberg (23:57)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (24:04)
You know, you need to make products that sell and, and, know, there's that vision and the founder that has something that they want to make. And our job is to get it made, you know, on the supply chain side and figure it out the best that we can.
Adam Steinberg (24:07)
Rolling.
Yeah.
Yeah, all that makes total sense. From a packaging standpoint,
how do you recommend brands maybe balance that desire to obviously have the best packaging that's going to stand out on the shelf the best versus
that desire to optimize for efficiency in terms of labor, touch points, automation, obviously it goes into partly what automation the co-packer has and what not. How do you
Tara Foster (24:32)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Steinberg (24:37)
feel like, how do
think about,
balancing the two?
Tara Foster (24:40)
mean, it's tough, because you're right, you do, you know, the package is very meaningful and how people pull that off the shelf. I think there's different things, right? There's different components that I don't think it's always, you know, one or the other. I think it's more thinking about, you know, do you want a six or a 12 pack, right? Like those types of things, because thinking about slotting, like, if I have a six pack, I'm only going to have to do, you know, and they need they want a free
case per store at the beginning, you the six, you're thinking about it holistically, like that's going to cost me a lot of money, right? ⁓ I think, you know, there's different things that you could do after the fact too, to automate more, right? So let's say, first of all, you're going to go in and you're going to find out what that code man has and what kind of package they could do, what kind of bottle they could do, what kind of bag, but, but you can also, you know,
Adam Steinberg (25:13)
Yeah.
Sure.
Tara Foster (25:32)
do things after the fact that make things easier or more automated with equipment. So you might start out and it might not be as efficient, but how do you make it more efficient and still be the package that you want on shelf?
Adam Steinberg (25:44)
Yeah. Yeah. Although those are super helpful.
there's definitely ways that you can also design your packaging and all the different components around that to make.
retailers lives easier
the easier making things with retailers, probably the better chance you're to have of getting more product on the shelf and whatnot. talking about
Tara Foster (25:58)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Steinberg (26:00)
like
making picking and packing as easy as possible for the team or stackability or making the case packs,
as compact as possible.
more inventory a retailer can have in the back of their store. like, what are, terms of some of those types of things, what would you say are.
Tara Foster (26:13)
⁓
Adam Steinberg (26:17)
some of the key things that brands should consider on this front?
Tara Foster (26:22)
Well, I think so when you're talking about retailers and you know, making it easier for them, I think one of the things that people don't always think about is the UPC and how is that done and is that clear is the best buy date like for consumers even like is that in a spot where your manufacturer.
Adam Steinberg (26:36)
Yeah.
Tara Foster (26:38)
Have you even thought about where that's going to go? Is the color that you have on your package going to show up where the inkjet is or if it's laser printed? So really having those conversations upfront as you're designing the packaging so your designer knows to build around it and not like last minute you send your packaging to your, your coman and they're like, wait, where are we going to put the, where are we going to put the inkjet? You know, so having those, those kinds of conversations, I think,
Adam Steinberg (26:59)
Right, Yep.
Tara Foster (27:04)
probably one of the more important things as far as it goes with designing the packaging.
Adam Steinberg (27:09)
of the product and getting it on the job. Yeah.
Tara Foster (27:09)
Yeah. And like TuckTabs even like so with
things like Waffles where you're repacking, you know, is that factored in? Because you get a die line and it doesn't always show everything on there. And so if you don't, if you don't kind of work through like, let's go buy some materials in market and see, you know, what they look like. So you can, or, your command may have a physical package or your packaging supplier would have like some examples of what they've already done in this format.
Just thinking through, oh, this one doesn't have a tuck tab. I need to make sure I ask for that and getting that set up to begin with versus launching it like that. And it's just a consumer issue.
Adam Steinberg (27:45)
Yeah.
in the refrigerated aisle and
the frozen aisle
what type of substrates and materials are you using in the packaging too. And thinking about some of that stuff, like how does condensation impact in the back of materials and that kind of stuff too.
Tara Foster (27:54)
Yeah.
Definitely. yeah, how is I mean, it's not even just in the original design. It's like when you do things over time, like let's say you had to, I've had stuff in my past where I've had to stick her over something because something wasn't right. The UPC wasn't right or something and you've got to get that product to market. You literally have to make sure that label can withstand being in the fridge and nobody thinks about that, right? It's not something that you would even, it's not common knowledge or something you think about. that's a good point.
Adam Steinberg (28:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Shifting gears a little bit, talking about
talent and team a little bit. I'm curious,
how does a COO's skill set
need to evolve as a brand goes from,
zero to one to small and scaling fast to,
larger scale where Nut Pods is today, let's say?
Tara Foster (28:39)
Yeah, I mean, just at the beginning, it's just so it's so much more tactical and, you know, it does depend on, know, the end, more like people building and teams and trying to make sure you're you're getting the right people in seats on the bus. But a lot of it depends on more on the CEO and their skill set. Are they stronger in that area or are they more on the sales side?
you know, and how much involvement they have. But really it's just at the beginning, you're super tactical. You might be making the production schedule. You might be scheduling the shipments at the beginning on a founding team of five. But then as you grow, seeing where your gaps are, know, like, mapping out your org chart and seeing who you need to bring on to make sure you're scaling properly.
Looking at network optimization. it's so much more strategic. The bigger you get, it's less just trying to get stuff out the door. It's where can we save? How can we make it better? How can we grow faster?
Adam Steinberg (29:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
in terms of those earlier stages, the founder launched a brand, they're building a brand, they're starting to get a bit of traction,
what would you say is the first ops hire that...
a founder should make and maybe there's a few different scenarios where it kind of depends, let's say.
Tara Foster (29:53)
Yeah, mean, it's honestly, it's really somebody who's a jack of all trades really, like in this in the supply chain world, you don't want somebody that's super deep on, know, they know a lot about production. I mean, honestly, like it's different, because if somebody is at a big company, they're typically super deep on something, right? Like they may only do scheduling, they may only do logistics.
But really at the beginning, need somebody that's got a breadth of knowledge that, you know, can kind of fill a lot of gaps and understand more of the whole process ⁓ versus somebody that's super deep on something very specialized.
Adam Steinberg (30:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
thinking about, let's just say the first, I don't know, the end of the first year at Nutpods compared to the 10th year
What did your ops org look like?
Tara Foster (30:39)
Yeah, I mean, we went from basically, you know, I was the person and we had one other person at the early stages that was managing ops. then, you know, when I when we exited a team of 13 people, so it was still pretty tight. I mean, for as big of a business it was, but we did have a coman So, you know, they're doing a lot of the operations kind of functions. But we had, you know, basically
Adam Steinberg (30:53)
Okay.
Sure.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (31:05)
someone who oversaw quality, someone who oversaw R &D, and someone who oversaw supply chain. And they all kind of led that part of the business and then had people that supported them in each part of that business.
Adam Steinberg (31:14)
Yeah.
That's super helpful. Shifting gears a little bit. I obviously you had a lot of wins under your belt. Uh, but yeah, I think some of the best learning experiences come from times when didn't necessarily go as expected or planned. I'm curious,
any,
initiatives that you worked on or strategies you implemented that you worked on didn't necessarily work or go as planned and
looking back, what'd you kind of learn from that or anything you feel like you would have done differently at all that jumps out.
Tara Foster (31:40)
I, so I, yeah, I just, I'm trying to think about that. I don't know if I have a certain scenario that's different. just think. Usually things don't always go as planned. Right. I think that things are bumpier than you think. I think when we've done moves, like warehouse moves.
Adam Steinberg (31:48)
for sure.
Yeah.
Tara Foster (31:55)
⁓
you know, I think it was a little naive at the beginning to think, yeah, we're just going to do this warehouse move. We're going to save so much money. And it's, it's just going to be super easy. And I think really not being prepared that it's going to be bumpy and, you know, understanding that and making sure there's time, you know, you've kind of planned with your team, you know, we're going to have to put some extra time into this. Maybe we need an extra person to come in.
Adam Steinberg (32:21)
Sure.
Tara Foster (32:21)
you
know, and try to help us do this move or ramp it up because things like that are certainly bumpy. Changing comans are bumpy and harder than you think. So I think just acknowledging and really having a mindset that there's 10 things that are going to go wrong, right? Like it's never going to go as planned, but how you react to it and how you're prepared for, for anything can happen is really where it, it'll help. It'll help ease the blow.
Adam Steinberg (32:36)
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, having that
mindset makes everything easier to a certain extent.
Last question for you, any brands or just general trends in this broader CPG space that you're particularly excited about and or
trends you wish you would have jumped on earlier looking back now? Either one those you can answer or both.
Tara Foster (33:05)
Well, one of the things,
yeah, no, just, one of the, so I did mentoring for the first time with skew. I was involved with skew, in Austin last year. And I think it's really cool because you get to see a lot of early stage brands and people are still coming up with new innovations. think there's so much in the, like the kelp.
Adam Steinberg (33:13)
yeah.
Tara Foster (33:26)
like the whole kind of foods that we're not used to eating that have a lot of nutritional value and making them palatable, like foraged and found was in that group. So kelp pickles and things like that. And long table was in our cohort that we had and they did, Samuel did, he does a popcorn flour. So he makes popcorn and makes flour out of it for the pancake mixes that they sell. And it's, totally changes the dynamic, makes it light and airy, but I would have never thought of that. So I just.
Adam Steinberg (33:46)
Interesting.
Tara Foster (33:51)
What I think is really cool about this industry is there's still new things that people are coming up with that are helping people get better foods in their system and they're innovative and they're still passionate about it. So that's what I like seeing.
Adam Steinberg (33:57)
Hello.
Yeah, I agree with that. think it's cool to see there's still innovation happening this far into the space. yeah, Tara, this has been awesome. I really appreciate the time. Where's the best place for people to follow along with you? And then also best place to follow along with Evergreen as well.
Tara Foster (34:14)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. So for me, LinkedIn is probably the best place and then evergreen Instagram, eat evergreen on Instagram is probably the best place for websites eat evergreen.com. So
Adam Steinberg (34:35)
Perfect, yeah, we'll link through it the notes too. Awesome, I'll you I appreciate it. This has been great. I really appreciate the time. This has been fun.
Tara Foster (34:38)
Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.